The NottAlone Podcast
Real talk about mental health with Dr Órlaith Green and Dr Maddi Popoola
Mental Health Awareness Week bonus episode.
Checking in: how to start a conversation about mental health.
Episode description
Mental Health Awareness Week bonus episode.
Checking in: how to start a conversation about mental health.
In this special bonus episode, Dr Maddi and Dr Orlaith explore how to start a conversation with someone who may be struggling with their mental health. They chat about why mental health matters and what to do if you’re worried about someone.
This is a standalone, short 22-minute episode with practical tips for you to use the next time you want to start a conversation about mental health. Plus, some reassurance that you don’t need to “fix” anything – just checking in helps more than you know.
Link to the Young Minds model referenced in the episode: How to have a conversation with young people about mental health
Transcript of episode
Music: Whatever you’re going through…I hope you know you are not alone…
Maddi: Ey up. And welcome to the NottAlone podcast, a place where we talk all things mental health. I’m Maddi.
Orlaith: And I’m Orlaith. We’re educational psychologists and we’re here to open up the conversation and offer a helping hand through different and sometimes challenging subjects around mental health.
Maddi: We chat to guests who offer their own perspectives on personal challenges, as well as professionals who share their advice. Sometimes these conversations can be tough, so please take care while listening and take a break if you need to.
Orlaith: Remember, if you’re impacted by any of the topics we cover, you can visit nottalone.org.uk to find advice and support. So let’s get started.
Maddi: Welcome back, everybody, to the NottAlone special edition of the NottAlone Podcast. Orla, hello. Or how are you doing?
Orlaith: Hello. Hi, Maddi. It’s Mental Health Awareness Week and we are popping on to have a, short episode to think about starting the conversation about mental health, aren’t we? What we’re going to do today is we’re going to actually just think about, what does it mean, talking about mental health? People say it’s really important. What does it actually mean? And how do you start the conversation? we’re going to hopefully give you some ideas and tips today. You don’t have to be perfect, you just have to be you. Anyone can have a conversation about mental health and what we’ll hopefully give you is some ideas about how to start, how to listen and connect with someone. And if you are really worried, still at the end of the conversation, where to go for further advice and support.
Maddi: All the guests that we’ve had on consistently, people say, don’t they, you know, having connection, human connection, relationships, reaching out, talking to somebody or having somebody ask you. And I think that’s what we want to explore a little bit more today. Like why, why talk about mental health?
Orlaith: Exactly.
Maddi: What’s the point?
Orlaith: What is the point?
Maddi: So what’s the point in talking about it?
Orlaith: I think people who are worried about starting the conversation or they think I don’t know how to talk about mental health feel like they’re under pressure to fix it. So they feel like if someone says to you, you know, I’m depressed or I’m really worried about something, they’re saying to you, I need you to fix this for me. But what I’ve heard that the most in the podcast especially, is when people are reaching out for help, they’re not always wanting you to fix it. a lot of the time they’re just wanting you to listen and to feel like they’re not alone.
Maddi: Yeah. Asking someone, are you okay? Or you know, and having that loaded question like, but are you really okay? You know, what’s, what’s going on for you? I think sometimes you might be, you might be a bit fearful of the response as well because like you say you don’t, you do, we can’t fix it. There is also something as well about, particularly culturally in, in the uk about. We just say that we’re okay as well, even though, even though we’re not, you know, there’s something still quite British, isn’t there?
Orlaith: There is, yeah. You know, with, within this culture, you know, you’re not necessarily traditionally encouraged to talk all about your feelings. Stiff upper lip and all that.
Maddi: You know, talking about your feelings and being really open about your, you know, personal experiences, your emotions, I think is easier for some people than others. Definitely. And I think there’s something kind of at the micro level that’s cultural perhaps within your family, like the way you’ve been brought up, you know, like if you’ve been encouraged to talk about your feelings, and then there’s so many other than kind of cultural factors that play in, in terms of you, who you are, your demographics as a, ah, as a human, you know, which would make you more or less likely to feel like you open up and that’s going to be received and accepted.
Orlaith: At the same time, there’s way more awareness, there’s way more social media content, there’s way more discussion, particularly I think in the younger generation about mental health. And I, I wondered, I was thinking about this today, I wondered if, because a lot of young people are probably better than our generation was definitely by talking about their emotions. There’s even more pressure for young people who don’t know how to talk about how they’re feeling. particularly when you’re younger people can feel shame that they feel like that. So it’s not even. They’re saying, oh, I need help and I don’t know how to ask for it. They’re thinking, I don’t know if I want anyone to know that I feel like this. There’s so many reasons why it would be hard to talk. So there’s a lot of things out there, like, just reach out, just talk. Like it’s really simple. But I think like, it’s not
Maddi: that simple, is it?
Orlaith: Exactly.
Maddi: Yeah. I think there’s still, I don’t know, like, I wonder about like social comparison and where that comes in because there’s a lot more of that now, like comparing self against the other, I guess, because we see people’s social media, etc. Etc. And then the other thing that just came into my mind as well was the potential of somebody feeling. Like it’s a weakness.
Orlaith: Yes.
Maddi: Like it’s not a strength.
Orlaith: Yeah, that’s what I mean. Like that they’re ashamed of whatever they’re feeling, but they’re not strong or they’re not able to. Successful. Not able to cope.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: But you know, a lot, what a lot of the guests talked about on the podcast is someone, just checking in on them that they talked about. And a lot of them, you know, when we asked them like, how did you recover? Most of the guests started with someone in their life who wasn’t a psychologist or a doctor. We asked them later on, did you see a counsellor? But most of them talked about their partner, their their sister, parent, their parents. And a lot of them talked about, you know, just being there for them, taking them out for a walk. And so I think, I think it’s a really good thing to talk about today. Just how do you start the conversation? Because I think that if you, if you know and love and care about the person, you know how to talk to them about anything. And mental health is just that same conversation. But once you get started, it’s, I think it’s the getting started and then the other bit is knowing where to go to for help if you’re really, really worried about them. And I think that’s where not alone comes in, isn’t it?
Maddi: Yeah, I think you’re right. Like not, it’s, it’s something, it’s something about even just using, using the terminology, isn’t it around mental health that scare, it’s like, scares people because straight away you think you need somebody with clinical experience or. Yeah. Somebody who has more of an in depth understanding to be able to cope with, cope with that and hold that for somebody else. Yeah. but like you say nine times out of ten you don’t need, you just need to be a human in a bubble with another human having a rich, deep, honest conversation about their feelings and their experiences.
Orlaith: So I think there’s, there’s sort of two bits here. There’s how do you start the conversation? And then I think there’s, once the conversation starts, there’s a really good sort of a checklist that we’ve come across that we thought be good to talk through. So that you can feel confident of the conversation. So should we start with how do you start.
Maddi: Yeah. So how do you start a conversation with someone around mental health? And I think this, this is where it differs with age, doesn’t it as well? Definitely. So like you’re not going to start a conversation with So, you know, perhaps it was you and I, and I wanted to start a conversation with you about how are you. I would do that very differently to how I might do it with my five year old.
Orlaith: Yeah. So let’s say as an adult, you’ve got a close friend or a close family member, another adult, and you noticed something’s not right. How do you try to start the conversation?
Maddi: I guess there’s something in there about, about knowing the person. First of all, it might be something that you’ve never really spoke to someone about before. You know, you can be a really close friend to someone.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: And never really have had to kind, of have that, you know, open.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: Deep and rich conversation.
Orlaith: Yeah. Because maybe you’re like, I don’t know, you’re. You’d go to the gym together.
Maddi: Exactly.
Orlaith: You’re a gym friend.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: And you, you talk about that and you go socialising.
Maddi: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think I don’t. There isn’t one answer for this. I think that’s, that’s what I’m thinking. I personally am a questioner, because m. I quite, I ask, well, I
Orlaith: think questions because we’re a psychologist, isn’t it?
Maddi: Yeah. I think the key thing isn’t it is asking somebody about their life, asking somebody about, you know, how are you feeling about this? You might, you know, think about something, perhaps they’re talking about where, it sounds like it might be stressful and just asking the question about the feelings that are underneath that rather than, do, you know, rather than about the experience itself, but trying to ask about, you know, how did that make, how did that make you feel?
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: You know, and perhaps using things from your own experience sometimes to say, well, I think if I was going through that or if I was having that problem, this would make me feel.
Orlaith: Like this, you know, I think sometimes it’s. It is as simple as saying, are you okay?
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: And then if they don’t want to talk to you or it doesn’t feel like the right time being persistent.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: So are you really okay?
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: M. Or ask them again the next day.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: Or say to them, I think there’s something going on with you. I’ve noticed. I could tell you not ready to talk about it right now, but I want to let you know I’m here.
Maddi: It’s letting them know you’re there, isn’t it? I think that’s it. It’s like if you need to talk, I’m here. And I think actually that. That with, younger people as well, because I think with younger people, pushing them often is, you know, is. It’s a real challenge because they’re all. They’re already, I suppose, thinking about, more teenage young people. They’re already probably not wanting to talk to an adult or quite closed off, just, you know, by nature. So I think, letting them know that you’re there is a really important thing. You know, just sort of saying, I know that you’re. You’re not okay. I can see that. Or I’m worried about this, or, you know.
Orlaith: Yeah. I think as well, if we can give. If you can give some evidence. So, like, I’ve noticed that you’ve stopped going for your walks on Sundays and I know that you love that. Or I’ve noticed that you’re, you know, you’re not, as dressed up as you usually are. And I know you love, like your style. Just noticing differences in people and there’s something about that. People feel insane, isn’t there?
Maddi: Definitely. And. And then just backing out. If, you know, I just want you to know that I am, here for you.
Orlaith: Yeah. I think we talked about this before with younger people and actually probably with adults as well, who either might have additional needs and can’t talk or don’t want to talk right now. Start with a shared activity.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: Ideally one where there’s not direct eye contact.
Maddi: Yeah, yeah. And I think this is where things definitely come in with children as well, isn’t it? You know, having that indirect conversation.
Orlaith: Yes. Go for a walk.
Maddi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do colouring together.
Orlaith: Play.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: With kids.
Maddi: Playing with little children. Definitely. Yeah. So should I give. Actually, I’ll give you an example. So my son’s, almost five and he didn’t want to go back to school on Monday. Obviously, he’s had two weeks off with this hero, so he would want to go back to school. I sat down on the floor and he was, like, sat with his legs out in front of him. So I mirrored his body language and I kind of got his attention. I looked straight into it, straight into his eyes, and I said, you know, there’s going to be so many people feeling the same way as you today. So many people are going to be feeling scared about coming back to school. It’s been a long time, hasn’t it, since you were there last? And I’m thinking how scary it’s gonna feel walking onto the playground and then walking through the door. and then we did a little role play where I pretend to be his teacher and he pretended to be him and like what we would say to each other. And I think there was a few different things that I did and it really helped him, it did really work because he really then I suppose processed what he was scared about, processed what he was worried about.
Orlaith: And he got a chance to practise this and he practised you before he had to do it for real.
Maddi: Yeah. And there was something about the moment of me going down to his level.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: As well. Just physically, do you know, not sitting on the floor. Yeah. Like standing above him. I think I felt I was like, I was trying to talk to him like that and it just wasn’t working. So went down to his level mirrored his body language, which I think really helped because it just put him at ease in some way. so, yeah, I think with little children there are certain things you can do that are non verbal.
Orlaith: Yes.
Maddi: To ask questions or to reassure.
Orlaith: So I think in our very first podcast we talked about talking to teenagers and driving with them in the car.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: And a colleague was listening to it and she said to me that she was doing some research with young teenage boys about talking about mental health and they were saying, do not talk to me in the car. I absolutely hate it because they feel trapped. And I thought that was so interesting. And I thought, you know, you’re doing these activities, you’re going for a walk, but make sure that they have a way out of the conversation. Make sure that they can, you know, they can walk away from you. So, like, if you’re in the room, make sure you’re not in front of the door so they feel like they can walk away, you know? And, that was really interesting because it is a threatening conversation to some extent. If you’ve got someone who’s really trying to say to you, I know there’s something wrong, there’s something you don’t want to talk about. I’m going to try and make you talk about it. So you need to think, you know, you were saying about going down to the level, about the physical environment around the conversation.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: And how do you make them feel safe? How do you make them feel like this is an okay place and, really interesting. How do you make like some Kids will love talking in the car. It’s a really happy time with their parents. And you know, because you’re driving and you’re not looking at each other, it’s an okay time to think. But I thought, I really took that on board and thought, yeah, like, what if someone feels trapped? They’re not going to open up to you if they already feel trapped before you even start the talking.
Maddi: Yeah. So there’s something about measuring the situation, isn’t there, within the moment and, knowing what, knowing how, how much to push when you need to fall back. I guess it’s like a similar thing, isn’t it, to that feeling, you know, if you know someone at work, for example, who you think might be struggling with their mental health. And having that conversation in a workspace could feel challenging or odd, couldn’t it?
Orlaith: I guess. So like the social environment could. You could feel trapped.
Maddi: Exactly.
Orlaith: Or you think you don’t want to open up in a professional environment.
Maddi: Yeah, yeah. So I guess asking someone for a coffee, do you know, like.
Orlaith: Yeah, just trying to say like, you know, do you want to go for a coffee sometime? Go for a walk?
Maddi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lunchtime walk?
Orlaith: Yeah, yeah. Or do you know? Do you know? Sometimes I find like if you’re in a meeting and you’re just sort of walking out, sometimes it’s a chance to be like, oh, God, that was a tough one, wasn’t it? Do you want to just like, do you want to just like go for a walk or go for a debrief?
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: And you. Sometimes just the change of scenery helps someone then to relax and think, maybe I could have a conversation.
Maddi: Yeah, definitely. And I suppose, yeah, just the language you use to deeply listen and I think the framework that you. Yes, M. Had a look at, I think it was. It’s almost like, almost like just a helpful tool I think, to have in your mind if you’re opening a conversation with someone about mental health, whether it be a child, an adult, and kind of just having these things in your mind in terms of what, what is helpful in those moments.
Orlaith: Yeah. So it’s This model is from the Young Minds website. I think they’ve got some really good stuff for parents and teachers talking about young people. But actually this model applies to talking to adults as well. And we’ll link it on the Not Alone website, linked to this episode. So basically, if you’ve managed to start the conversation, this is a five point model of how to then follow on. So I’ll read it and then we’ll talk about each one. So listen, reassure, validate, act and remember that it’s not all on you.
Maddi: Yeah. Okay.
Orlaith: So that’s the model. So first of all, listen. It sounds really obvious, but when you’re talking to someone that you care about and they start telling you, you know, what’s going on for them, a lot of people’s instinct will be to jump in and say, oh, let me give you some ideas, let me try and help from a good place. But actually, what does that look like? Really good listening when you’ve managed to start the conversation.
Maddi: Yeah. So one of the things that I, One of the things that I think is, is it’s almost like an indicator, for me of being listened to and someone feeling listened to. again, it’s. We talk about this in psychology. Don’t. About, about mirroring body language. So deeply listening to somebody is you, I guess, trying to stop yourself and in that moment from your own thoughts. So slight pressing pause on whatever you might be thinking or internalising based on what someone else is saying. And just focus on what they are saying. Because we as humans are so naturally constantly having our own.
Orlaith: Yes.
Maddi: Thoughts based on what someone else is saying. And we want to go because we just, we’ve got an idea or we’ve got, you know, I can solve that or I can fix it, but actually, most of the time what someone needs is to just be listened to. And a result of that is feeling heard.
Orlaith: And we learn as, psychologists if you are going to say something or if there is a pause, if you can repeat back the things that they’ve say with, that they’ve said without your interpretation. So if you can just say back to them. So you’re telling me that you feel really, really sad and really, really low when you wake up every morning. exactly. The words they’ve used is really powerful. People really think, oh, they have actually listened. They’ve know, they’ve really heard me.
Maddi: Yeah. And I guess that moves you on then to the validation.
Orlaith: Yeah. Reassurance.
Maddi: Reassurance.
Orlaith: Sorry, I think, you’re skipping through the model. Sorry. But the reassurance. I think that the thing I learned, I don’t know where from where, but I always remember it when someone tells you something like that, say to them, thank you for telling me.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: And that is so powerful because, they might tell you something really shocking like they might say, you know, I’ve been harming myself or I’ve been having really, you know, violent thoughts. And actually if, if they finally opened up to someone and you react with shock or disgust or distress, potentially, they’re not going to open up again. So there is something about just reassuring them you’ve done the right thing by talking.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: Thank you for telling me.
Maddi: Yeah. Often when you watch, like reality TV shows and start crying, it’s a really use, a really common response for people to go, oh, don’t cry. Yeah, don’t cry.
Orlaith: Yes.
Maddi: And I think, why not? Yeah, why not? Like.
Orlaith: Well, that’s where the validator comes in, isn’t it?
Maddi: The reassurance part is definitely about you, I suppose, just holding it and kind of saying, that’s okay that you’ve told me that.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: And I’m pleased that you feel like you could share it in this moment.
Orlaith: Yeah. And then the validation is something like, you know, I would be crying too if that happened to me.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: Or, yeah, it sounds like you’re feeling really angry. I mean, that’s understandable given what’s happened.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: So there’s something there. Like, link back to what you were saying earlier about trying to connect with the feeling. So, you know, you were saying you feel worried. You know, going back to school is really worrying or everybody worries about exams. It’s. It’s okay to be worried.
Maddi: Yeah. There’s going to be a lot of other people. Yeah, that’s what I did, I guess, isn’t it, with my son. Yeah. I was like, yeah, there’s going to be lots of people worried about that feeling. yeah, feeling scared about it.
Orlaith: I think as the conversation goes on, then the final bit of the model is about act. So, like, do something. But I think it’s really closely linked to the final point. Remember, it’s not all on you because I think that’s where people get worried. So up until then, they might feel, oh, it’s okay. But then when it’s like, oh, I really think that this person could do with talking about this with someone else. So talk to them about something you can do next. And then if it is, I really think you need to talk to maybe a professional or you need to get some information about this thing, signpost them to not alone.
Maddi: Yeah. And I guess sometimes it might be about saying to someone, is there anything that you need that might be the action and the answer might be no. Like, it might just be enough for that person to have you there to talk to. And I guess that’s where it comes to this idea of responsibility as well. I think it can feel quite uncomfortable for somebody if someone’s told them something, and they’re clearly struggling emotionally with that. and you feel like you’re the only person holding. Yeah, holding that information. That can feel uncomfortable, can’t it?
Orlaith: So if you go on Not Alone and you look up whatever thing the person has talked about, you know, bullying, bereavement, loss, there’s information there for you as the person who’s worried about someone else, isn’t there? So I guess I think that’s really important, Maddi, you know, if you’re the person who’s been the listener and you are worried after the conversation or you need any help, or you think, what do I do next? Still go to Not Alone. There’s advice there for you as well.
Maddi: There are things out there. Absolutely. And go on the website and have a look. And I think then it’s also probably important to just point out before we finish that if you are extremely worried about somebody’s mental health, if you think they are close to taking their own life or are at serious risk of harm, of course, it’s really important that you, phone the crisis services that we have available both locally and nationally. you can find all of that information again on the Not Alone website.
Orlaith: Thanks, everybody, and good luck with any conversations that you have around anyone you’re worried about.
Maddi: Yeah. Thank you for listening. We’ll be back again with series four in the next few months, which we’re very excited about. Yeah, thank you again for listening. As always, take care of yourselves.
Orlaith: And remember, you’re not alone. We discussed some heavy subjects today, so remember that you can find advice and links to support services on nottalone.org.uk you are not alone.
