The NottAlone Podcast
Real talk about mental health with Dr Órlaith Green and Dr Maddi Popoola
Series three episode three: Overcoming anxiety and school avoidance with Shova
Episode description
Series three episode three: Overcoming anxiety and school avoidance with Shova
NottAlone co-founders Dr Maddi Popoola and Dr Órlaith Green sat down with 18-year-old university student Shova to discuss her experience with anxiety and panic attacks and the effect on her school attendance.
Shova tells her story, explaining when she started to struggle to attend school, how her attendance rate dropped as low as 60% and her fear that she would never be able to cope with going to school.
She also shares what helped her to overcome her anxiety and panic attacks and rebuild her attendance.
Shova gives advice for friends and family, as well as sharing her tips for those who are struggling with anxiety around going to school. Educational psychologists Dr Maddi and Dr Órlaith explain some of the psychology behind the experience and reflect on their work with young people experiencing similar issues.
Content note: this episode discusses some heavy topics around anxiety, panic attacks and feeling unable to attend school. Please, listen with care, take a break if you need it and visit NottAlone.org.uk if you need support around any of the issues raised in this episode.
Series three of The NottAlone Podcast is a special four-episode podcast series which explores some challenging topics, hearing young people’s first-hand experiences of grief, loss, eating disorder recovery and overcoming anxiety and panic attacks.
Transcript of episode
Music: Whatever you’re going through…I hope you know you are not alone…
Maddi: Ey up. And welcome to The NottAlone Podcast, a place where we talk all things mental health. I’m Maddi.
Órlaith: And I’m Órlaith. We’re educational psychologists and we’re here to open up the conversation and offer a helping hand through different and sometimes challenging subjects around mental health.
Maddi: We chat to guests who offer their own perspectives on personal challenges, as well as professionals who share their advice. Sometimes these conversations can be tough, so please take care while listening and take a break if you need to.
Órlaith: This episode touches on some heavy subjects such as anxiety and not feeling able to attend school at all. Remember, if you’re impacted by any of the topics we cover, you can visit NottAlone.org.uk to find advice and support. So, let’s get started.
Maddi: Ey up!
Órlaith: Hi, Maddi. Welcome back to another episode of The NottAlone podcast.
Maddi: These are my favourite days. Yeah, I love coming here. I love seeing you.
Órlaith: Me too.
Maddi: And I love having guests on. So today, we’re going to have a conversation with Shova. Shova is going to be sharing her experiences with anxiety, panic attacks and the effect that it’s had on her school attendance. Something that’s very topical at the minute and something that we know there are lots and lots of young people out there struggling with. We’re also going to give you some tips to help you if you’re affected by the issue. So stay tuned to the end for that. So welcome, Shova.
Shova: Hello.
Órlaith: Lovely to see you.
Maddi: Lovely to see you and to meet you actually for the first time. So Shova, attended one of the schools that I do a lot of work with in my, my day to day job and we are really pleased to have her. She’s come all the way from Birmingham. I’ll tell you what, you talk about yourself, Shova. You tell our listeners who you are and what you’re up to at the moment.
Shova: Yeah, I, mean, I’ve grew up in Nottingham my whole life, but obviously I’ve moved out for uni. Uni of Birmingham. I’m doing law now. It’s a bit unnerving moving out and everything, but I think I’ve gotten into the flow of things, so it’s quite nice.
Órlaith: Lovely. What year are you in at Birmingham?
Shova: Yeah, I’m in first year.
Órlaith: Oh, so you just started. That’s really exciting.
Maddi: So that must make you 18.
Shova: Yes.
Maddi: Is that right? Thank you so much for coming in and speaking with us today. So I guess what we really wanted to focus on and understand more about is your school experience. So tell us a little bit about, if you can remember, what was primary school like for you?
Shova: I was quite a sociable kid, actually. One would call me a teacher’s pet.
Órlaith: [laughs] Very good.
Shova: Yeah, Me and my friends were the type of the group to just stay in for recess and help teachers cut out squares and stuff for whatever they needed it for.
Maddi: So you quite enjoyed primary school?
Shova: Yeah.
Maddi: Do you think? Yeah.
Shova: Oh, I loved it, yeah.
Maddi: Okay. And you, you attended well, you went like every day?
Shova: Yeah, I went every day.
Maddi: So then you transitioned into, into secondary school, into year seven or high school. Tell me a bit about what, how did you experience that, transition into high school?
Shova: Initially I really enjoyed it. Like I was still quite a sociable student, I had quite a few friends. It was still a really good, like, initial experience. I still was quite happy and content with it. and I think it’s only after Covid that when going back into the routine of things, I started to realise that maybe things weren’t as good as I thought they were. And I was, I had a lot of bottled inside emotions that I didn’t really realise until it all came to the top and it just exploded.
Maddi: What year were you in when Covid hit? Do you remember what school year you were in?
Shova: Yeah, I was in year eight and then I think started to come back in around like year nine.
Maddi: So you missed quite a significant period, year eight and year nine?
Shova: Yeah.
Maddi: And then when you came back to school then, were you feeling like this when you were at home during Covid do you think? Or was it when you came back to school?
Shova: Coming back, I think it’s when you have to go back to socialising with your friends, and I think that’s when I really noticed the difference of being at home compared to going into school again.
Órlaith: So when you say you noticed the difference, how did you first notice that something was going on, that things weren’t right? What were some of the first things that you noticed?
Shova: I don’t even think it was something I was like that aware of. I think I only noticed after having like my first panic attack within a lesson. And after that it just wouldn’t stop. It was like every single day it was another panic attack. And that’s when it started to cause alarm bells, especially for the people around me because before that I was a really good student. I was coming in every day, so, it’s different when someone just suddenly starts having panic attacks and you don’t know where it’s coming from.
Órlaith: Is it okay to ask you a bit about panic attacks, Shova?
Shova: Yep.
Órlaith: So, some people I think probably have no idea what a panic attack is or what it’s like. So, would you be able to explain what it feels like?
Shova: It was quite a foreign feeling. I think, it went from hyperventilating and just not being able to catch my own breath. And then it just got to like crying and just I had my leg always shaking all the time. It was like an out of body experience. I didn’t know what I was really feeling. I was just there and I felt like I was just. Everything around me was so overstimulating.
Órlaith: Wow. Sounds really scary.
Shova: Yeah, it is.
Órlaith: Yeah. And so you got to a point where that was happening to you every day?
Shova: Yeah, every day or every other day. It’s like I’d be fine one minute and then the next it just suddenly just happened and I wouldn’t be able to control it. It’d just start.
Maddi: Did you ever know in those moments kind of what was leading up to it? Do you know, like what were the kind of, triggers for you?
Shova: I think initially it was just, I had no clue. But the more I think on it, I think it was, it could be the most small thing. Like I woke up and I felt wrong. It could be I walked to school and I, I dropped my bag or I talked to my friends and I just didn’t feel like I was a part of the conversation. Even just going to like a maths class, just knowing it’s a class I don’t like. It would just be those little things that just triggered you and just got into my mind and just started to form like cycle of doubt.
Órlaith: Some people when they’re in a cycle of anxiety and panic attacks, it’s like they’re at a high level of anxiety all the time. So that a little thing like you described, like dropping your bag, which for a lot of people would just be an annoying thing that happened, but for you as holding a lot of anxiety, that is like the final straw and that triggers a, big reaction. Is that kind of what your experience was?
Shova: Yeah, I think that’s exactly it.
Órlaith: Yeah. And it’s interesting as well because a lot of people will ask the question like you did, Maddi, like, you know what’s causing this? And then people find it very hard to understand when you are trying to say I dropped my bag. You’re saying, I know this is a strange reaction, but it’s actually the level that you’re starting at is very high. So the trigger could be anything really. And I think that’s when, you know, generalised anxiety can get really on top of you, can’t it?
Maddi: So I guess on that note then, you were already in a quite high state of kind of anxiety and alert. You’re already every day feeling highly anxious and like you say, little things tipped you over the edge. What do you think it was? Was it about school that was kind of putting you in that heightened state? What was kind of happening for you at that time?
Shova: I think it was definitely school and I feel like I no longer knew how to socialise. I found it really difficult to be around friends. I think, I got really paranoid that everyone was whispering about me, talking behind my back, laughing at me, and obviously they weren’t, or maybe they were, but either way it was just this paranoid feeling and I felt like school was no longer a place I could go to and feel safe.
Maddi: That must be really hard. Really hard.
Órlaith: So you stopped attending school completely or bit by bit? What happened?
Shova: It was bit by bit. I originally started off trying to go to school anyways, regardless. And when you anticipate having a panic attack every single day or every other day, you start to feel like it’s going to happen no matter what you do. So I think from there I just felt like I could no longer go, and every time I did it was with that feeling. So obviously, if I’m already feeling like I’m going to have a panic attack, I’m going to have one because I’ve already anticipated it for myself.
Maddi: So the worry of having a panic attack is exacerbating your already high level of anxiety. And then probably, like you said, kind of in a cycle of you’re so worried about having one that you have one. Is that right?
Shova: Yeah.
Órlaith: That is the really tricky thing about anxiety, isn’t it? It’s like you’re worrying about being anxious. I think that’s quite a common experience that lots of people experience. How would you describe that cycle and how would you explain that to someone?
Shova: I think it’s the anticipation of it. You can be feeling alright, but it’s going into an environment where you don’t feel safe. Even something as safe as school, like, you go in and you feel like something’s wrong and you don’t know what to do about it. So because you’re feeling so wrong, you just continually make yourself feel worse until you have a panic attack. And then after you have that panic attack, you go home, you feel better, and then it starts again when you go back to school because you’re feeling like it will happen again. I think my attendance slowly dropped to under around like 60%. I think it may have gone lower, but obviously some days I’d come in half, and then some days I’d come in for like 10 minutes and then immediately leave afterwards. So, it got to a really, like, low attendance, considering before I’d have, like a 90 plus attendance.
Maddi: So on those days when you kind of wake up and, you know, you just said it’s like something’s wrong. Did anything help you on those days?
Órlaith: Yeah, because you still were going in some days.
Maddi: Yeah.
Shova: I think it was a lot of reminding myself. I’m overthinking it. It’s all right. It’s going to be okay. and it was making sure that I pushed my boundaries, because that anxiety would build up a wall for me. And sometimes you just have to climb over it. So sometimes I’d tell myself, okay, I’m just going to try and put my clothes on. Let’s do that. Okay. I’m just gonna try and open the door for, the front door and try and walk out of that door. Let’s just do that. And knowing that the end goal isn’t going to school, but actually just trying to complete one bit step by step, it really helped.
Órlaith: It’s really powerful, isn’t it? You can hear someone else listening who’s really struggling with anxiety and thinking, oh, that’s a strategy that I could try. So, you talked about two things there. You talked about self talk, which is literally talking to yourself, giving yourself a pep talk. And you used some of those phrases, didn’t you? Like, it’s okay. You have little catchphrases that you’re telling yourself. Did you actually speak to yourself or were you talking to yourself in your head?
Shova: it’s a bit of both. Sometimes I’m just like, this is not a big deal, okay? I just need to get through it. It’s all right. Nothing bad can really happen. What’s the worst that can happen? It’s never something as bad as my brain is making it out to be.
Órlaith: Yeah. Some people actually talk to themselves or look at them in the mirror and say it to themselves. They find it helpful. And then the second thing you talked about is breaking it down step by step. Which is the way to just take the first step, isn’t it? So actually, when you’re talking about get dressed or just get out the door, you’re not talking about going to school, are you? Because that feels too hard. You’re just saying, what do I need to do to open the door? And then that feels like, you can manage the first step, and then you can think about the second step once you’ve done it.
Maddi: Just to kind of put the psychology behind that, we call it graded exposure. It’s the idea of a tiny little bit at, a time. And for someone who’s really stuck in that kind of position of anxiety that you’ve talked about, you know, I can’t. I just can’t. Can you get dressed? Can you just open the front door? And it might be that day one, you just get dressed, and then day two, you get dressed and you open the door, and then day three, you go to the end of the garden path. But it’s about those really small, manageable steps, isn’t it? So when you did miss school, so on days when you couldn’t do it, how did that make you feel? You seemed like quite a conscientious young person. So did you ever worry about missing things, missing friends, or the work?
Shova: Yeah, I think it was probably one of my biggest worries, because I always had it in my mind that I want to be quite studious and I want to, like, do well in my education. So I’d get, like, lesson packets, work being handed to me, to take home and do. And I think that just made it worse because I’d see that pile of work just go up and up and see it not be touched.
Órlaith: So you had that sense of, like, falling behind, and you could see that you’re falling more behind. And certainly a lot of young people that I’ve worked with who have had similar experiences to you talk about that a lot. So there might be an initial reason why you start finding it hard. And for you, it was about coming back after Covid. But then once you’ve been out for a bit, a new worry emerges, which is worrying about how far behind you are.
Maddi: Yeah. Do you, I want to just go back to the panic attacks just for a moment, if that’s okay. In those moments, I think it would be really helpful for anyone else who’s perhaps experiencing a panic attack. Have you got any memory of what you did, said, felt strategies that you used in those moments to, like, reduce your level of panic? So what helped you?
Shova: Yeah, I had quite a few ways. one of the ways is I’d distract myself through doing something that I enjoyed. Like, I’d, draw something. I like art, so I do a lot of drawing, and I tried to get my emotions out that way. If not, my sister, she’d tell me lots of horrible jokes, or she’d just say lots of sarcastic little bits, and I just can’t help but laugh. And when you laugh, you just… You’re kind of forced out of that, panic attack.
Maddi: It’s kind of a. It’s like a distraction technique, isn’t it? I guess, is what you’re talking about when you say you did, like, you would do some drawing. Do you think, is that, would you do that when you felt like, oh, I think it’s coming on, or was that a way to kind of get yourself from heightened panic, hyperventilating, all those things you described back down to, you know, a level where you weren’t in that state?
Shova: It could be either. Sometimes it’d be me pre-emptively just going out and just doing little drawing, trying to calm myself down. And then sometimes it’d be mid, mid panic attack. And, I had, like, a safety plan so people would know, to give me a piece of paper and a pen so that I could just start doing, like, a little scribble or draw. So I didn’t know how to, like, manage that.
Maddi: Talk a bit about that safety plan.
Órlaith: Yeah, same question I was going to ask.
Maddi: I’m really interested, really interested in that and, and how. What I also want to know is how school can help. So were they part of that safety plan?
Shova: Yeah. So the school had, like, a safety plan that was emailed out to all the teachers for the signs of my panic attacks and what they’d need to do. Because obviously I’m in a panic attack. I’m, gonna be a bit distraught. So I think on it, it was, we communicated about it and what I think would have best suited me and how I could, best be helped. So I think, on mine, it said something about me having a pen and paper, me having lots of tissues, me having a bottle of water, and just taking me to an isolated place where there’s no one else but at least, like, one teacher instead of lots of students.
Maddi: Wow.
Órlaith: How did that come about? Were you involved in writing the safety plan?
Shova: Yeah, because I was struggling a lot. I knew what was best for me. So I’d talk to the teachers and we’d talk about what would be best for me when I’m having a panic attack. So I communicated to them what I think would best suit me and best help me whilst I’m having a panic attack. And then they put that into place.
Órlaith: That’s really important, isn’t it, that the person who’s experiencing the panic attack is part of making the plan. I liked what you said about, you know, I know myself best so I can say what’s going to help me.
Maddi: And it’s really nice to hear that the school really kind of were on, bored with you and collaborated with you in that and gave you those additional kind of adjustments that you needed in those moments to be able to cope then with being in school. Do you think having that helped you to worry less about having a panic attack?
Shova: Yeah, I think it was a lot of trial and error because as, as a student, obviously there’s going to be, there’s going to be moments where you’re just, you just think they’re not helping at all. Like you’re going because you’re so emotional you can’t see straight. But I realised obviously that they are helping me, they’re doing the best that they can. And I think because, they put that plan in place and because we trialled and errored, we had different solutions, different problems come up and we navigated through that. It made me feel a lot more safe trying to, when I did have a panic attack
Maddi: And did you have key people in school that you felt you could go and talk to that you felt you were safe with?
Shova: Yes. Especially in sixth form, we had a therapist that was there 24/7. You can talk to him and he’d help out a lot.
Órlaith: That’s something I’d like to ask you about, if that’s okay, about working with a therapist, because some people who are struggling with anxiety don’t really know much about a therapist and what that means and what that looks like. So if you, if someone was listening to you and they were saying, well, what is a therapist and what are they going to ask me and what are they going to do? How would you describe, you know, what happens when you go to see a therapist and what do you talk about and what does it feel like?
Shova: I think it’s different depending on what sort of therapist you have. Like, I had a lot of CBT previously and that wasn’t for me. It didn’t jam well with me, I think. The person I had afterwards, it was a lot of talking, exploring my emotions and seeing what issues would arise and how to combat them and stuff. And I think it really helped me, have a better awareness of what my emotions are and how I feel.
Maddi: So this continued, the panic attacks, they continue all the way through sixth form? Like, was there a point at which it got better for you?
Shova: I think after like year 10, I still had panic attacks. They were frequent, but they weren’t as frequent. And I continually went to school, I think I got my attendance back.
Maddi: Yeah, well done. Well done. It’s really hard, isn’t it.
Órlaith: amazing. It is really hard.
Maddi: When you go in somewhere that’s literally making you feel, physically feel uncomfortable and anxious, but you’ve kind of managed somehow to get through that and still go into school.
Shova: Yeah. in year 10, they had a certain building and then we moved over to a different building in year 11, I think, because all my emotions and negativity were rooted in a building where I had all my panic attacks. Moving over to the different building, it also really alleviated that because, I felt like I had a fresh start. Even though it’s the same people, it’s the same school, but it felt like a new chapter for me and I think that got me back into going to school full term.
Maddi: That’s really interesting, isn’t it? I think, because when you’ve experienced panic attacks, there’s a lot of associations that you make with them. You know, like crossing over into the school building in the morning, the walk to school even, you know, like, there’s a lot of different, common things that you would have been doing daily that then would have become anxiety evoking experiences for you. I guess. So it’s really interesting the thought of actually sometimes that, that doing things differently can actually be good for anxiety because it kind of stops the pathways that you build it in your brain around, that’s going to make me do, you know, that’s going to make me anxious, that’s going to make me feel like this.
Shova: I definitely agree. I think walking to school was definitely one of the biggest hurdles is that anticipation of going into the building. And my sister really helped me, just walk to school. I think that was the consistency of just walking to school school with someone. Not even with the idea of going into school, just walking there consistently day to day really helped pull my attendance back because I no longer had that fear associated with going in if I was walking daily. Aand sometimes I wouldn’t even make it past the front door, sometimes I’d make it halfway there, sometimes I’d make it to the gates. And obviously it’s a scale. Sometimes it goes up, sometimes it goes down. But it was that consistency of trying to go, no matter what, that persistence of realising I still have to go to school, that really helped me, I think.
Maddi: So did your sister walk with you?
Shova: Yeah, she walked with me. She was really annoying about it. She was very persistent. I’d be like, I need to stop here. And she’d tell me, okay, just try, do one more step. Because I think that’s always important to just try and push yourself even a bit. Because sometimes that anxiety, it really does just act as a wall when really it’s just a little stick in your step. You know, it’s easy to go past, but you just don’t realise it because you’re in that high state of anxiety.
Maddi: Yeah. Have we ever spoke before on here about psychological partners?
Órlaith: We have, and I was just going to remind you of that fact, Maddi. We’ve talked about that and it sounds like your sister is, was doing that role for you, psychological partner being alongside you and physically walking to the scary environment is one of the key strategies for psychological partners, isn’t it?
Maddi: Yeah it is, they use it in football so you know when players are taking a penalty kick into the goal. So obviously it’s a long walk from the halfway line up to the 18 yard box. So they’ve started, and they’re not allowed in, they’re not, someone else isn’t allowed in the box, but they can walk them to the edge of the box. And the England football team have started to introduce this idea of a psychological partner who walks you as far as you can and then for you it would be like, get into the gate and then be like, no, no, no, no, I can’t do it. But if you’re with somebody, actually that all of a sudden feels a bit more natural, a bit easier. You know, you’ve got somebody to focus on, to talk with, to be alongside. and it just really makes that difference, doesn’t it, of having, having a person to experience that with you.
Shova: Yeah, it really does. And I think it’s also so helpful, especially when it’s a family member like my sisters. They really did help because they knew that I wasn’t pushing myself and they knew when I wasn’t pushing myself enough and sometimes it would get a bit blurry and they wouldn’t know when I’m fully just not in the mood and I just can’t entertain it further. But I think that back and forth really helped me realise I’m not questioning myself enough. It’s not even about pushing yourself, it’s just about realising that sometimes the anxiety is holding you back and it doesn’t control you. Sometimes you can step forward even like just a teeny bit, and it can still, it can work wonders for you.
Órlaith: And that’s an interesting technique that you’ve talked about as well for anxiety because some people will be worried about a particular thing and they’ll try and challenge the thoughts about that thing, like, it won’t be that bad, you know, I’ll be okay. But actually, their experience is that it is really bad and they’re not okay. So, you’re still going to school and it is really causing you panic attacks. So a technique, if that’s not working, is to switch to how much is this controlling me? And it’s a different sort of thought process, isn’t it? So you’re saying school is hard and it is scary and I do have panic attacks, but do I want to let this anxiety control my life? You know, do I want to let this mean I miss out on school? I miss seeing my friends. And some people find that that route through the anxiety is better because it gives them a bit of a, like, get up and go. Being like, no, it is really hard but, like you said, I am going to go, I am going to push myself because I want to be there, I want to learn, I want to go to uni, you know, I want to move out and meet new friends.
Maddi: We talk a lot, don’t we, in psychology, about, about sitting with anxiety. I suppose when someone’s anxious, we naturally want to make them less anxious, right, because you want, and you kind of want to take away the things that are making them anxious. It’s actually really about sitting with it and going with exactly what you’re describing. It’s like, how do I kind of almost befriend it and, you know, have this thing? Yeah, I know, I’m anxious about this and it’s there and it’s with me all the time. But it’s how you talk to it almost and how you kind of how you can cope with it. And actually a lot of people say that externalising it and seeing it as not a part of them, but something that’s with them, alongside them.
Shova: I think for me initially, I completely shut down after starting to have panic attacks and I couldn’t see myself going to school anymore. I was pleading and begging to be homeschooled because I thought that was the only way I work, the only way I could feel comfortable again. And I think that just worsened my anxiety. It just made it even worse because, I was no longer confronting it. I was just bathing in it and I liked the comfort of it. when you have anxiety, it’s quite easy to just succumb yourself to it and let it be the one thing that’s driving you. And it’s quite comforting in a way because you don’t have to challenge yourself. You’re just in your emotions all the time. So having to confront it, it was really difficult. But when I did start to confront it, I think that was like the main point where I started to change and getting better at bringing my attendance back up.
Órlaith: That’s a really interesting thing to share and I think lots of people have that experience. But it’s not talked about a lot, is it? That, you know, really hard mental health experiences like anxiety can be in a weird way comforting when you’re stuck in it and it’s, you know, you sort of revert into it like you say. So it’s not just that it feels too hard to get out of it. There is a strange familiarity, comfort. And I think that is sometimes hard for the people around the person who’s struggling to understand, isn’t it?
Shova: I think one thing that really pushed me to try was I was talking to my sister and I was like, I really, I just feel comfortable and I don’t want to change. I was too comfortable in my anxiety that I didn’t think I wanted to change because I was alright with being sad all the time. And she was like, I’m alright with you having anxiety. I’m alright with you having your panic attacks, but you not wanting to change and not wanting to better yourself, I think that’s the one thing that I only have a problem with. And I think that really struck a chord with me. It made me realise that my emotions and my anxiety, yeah, it’s alright to have anxiety, it’s alright to have panic attacks and all of that stuff, but, it’s about really like looking at yourself and seeing when your anxiety is coming to a point where you’re not trying to improve yourself.
Órlaith: If you were giving any advice to your sister or your friends about how they could help you… So let’s say someone has, noticed that their sister is struggling or their best friend is struggling. What advice would you give to them, you know, from what you’ve learned from your experiences?
Shova: I think just stay consistent. Make sure that they always know that you’re there to help. When you feel alone, you reassure yourself, oh, well, I’m alone, no one’s helping me, when there’s no one around. So when you have that reassurance, when you just get that one text from someone saying, oh, hi. I think it’s that consistency of just checking in and just making sure that they’re aware that they’re seen. I think that always helps.
Órlaith: That’s really important, isn’t it? And if you are a friend or a sibling of someone who’s struggling. I think it’s really good to hear what Shova just said there. You don’t need to worry about saying the right thing. You just need to be you. Check in with them, you know, go for a walk, do the things you normally do and just be there for them and let them know you’ve noticed them. And if you are thinking about, how do I ask, how do I get some help from my friend, you can always go to NottAlone.org.uk and you can look at the support services that are out there and it might be that you can talk to the person you’re worried about and signpost them to somewhere that can help.
Maddi: Shova, I think lots of so many young people will be listening and relating to what you’re saying right now. I think there’s a lot of children that are kind of are stuck exactly where you were in that place of, I can’t, I can’t go, I can’t do this. And actually it’s a lot better for me to just avoid it and take it, take all the things away that are making me feel like that, because I’d rather just be here and be sad and be on my own, because that doesn’t make me feel as anxious being in that place. What if you could kind of speak to one of those young people and imagine they’re in that place where you were then, what would you say to that young person?
Shova: When I was in, like, my worst moments, I used to hate when people said, say it’ll get better. it was one of the phrases I hated because, in my mind I was like, it won’t get better. But I think the more I think on it, it’s just, it’s your mindset and it is really difficult. It’s really difficult to have fear of going outside. It’s a difficult process to have. It’s difficult to not be able to talk to your friends without worrying that they’re laughing about you behind your back. But when you do make the steps towards changing the way you think and changing the way you look at your anxiety, sometimes it really is for the better because it can really help you process it a lot better and it will just make you happier overall. I felt a lot of guilt, with my anxiety. It was there, but it was something that I needed at the time. But now I realise that the more I step forward and the more I look at myself, I feel a lot happier and I’m a lot more comfortable now that I don’t have to worry about it as much.
Órlaith: And if you had someone who was thinking, well, I’m, not like Shova, you know, she sounds really strong and she had her sisters and, you know, her anxiety wasn’t as bad as mine, I can’t do it, what would you say to them that you think might help?
Shova: I think everyone’s experiences are different. You may not have the same anxiety as me, you may have different symptoms. You may not have like panic attacks the way I do. You may not even have panic attacks at all. But in the end, anxiety is pretty much the same every time. It’s always that same like gut wrenching feeling. And I do understand it and I do understand people not feeling like they have that support and feeling that they’re isolated. But sometimes it is just, it is just accepting what’s around you and just accepting the fact that it may not just be the anxiety holding you back, but it may be your response to the anxiety that may be holding you back even more.
Maddi: I think that’s, that’s a really good point. As psychologists it is something that we, obviously we do a lot of work around school attendance. Órlaith and I, we are both educational psychologists so we work a lot with schools. And I was just thinking as you were talking then that the anxiety is the feeling, isn’t it? That’s the, that’s what’s kind of underneath. And then what we have on top of that is a behaviour. So your behaviour, what it sounds like it was either panic modes. It was either, you know, panic and sweat and hyperventilate and all those things or avoid. So your behaviours were either don’t do it, stay away from it or lean into it, but then get really, really panicky. And I think what we see also a lot of, and I think it’s not always recognised as school anxiety is behaviours that are actually quite challenging, refusal to do anything to go to a lesson, you know, where children can be kind of seen as actually being quite, words we hear are things like they are refusing and they’re, you know, disobeying. They’re not able to follow rules, they’re not able to, they’re not, they’re disengaged. Those kinds of narratives that we hear about children, I think actually a lot of the time what’s underneath that, ah, is, is this kind of feeling of anxiety and overwhelm with, whether it be the social side of school or the learning side, perhaps where someone perhaps feels like they’re, they can’t understand the lessons. And if you’re a teacher or if you work in a school and you’re listening to this, it’s important to understand what’s underneath those, those refusal, I’m doing inverted commas, I know you can’t all see me, but, I don’t like using that word, which is why I did it. But I think it’s important to understand the anxiety, isn’t it, and work with that.
Órlaith: Not everybody is able to say, I’m feeling anxious. I don’t think I can go to school. And for some children, it will come out in different ways. And it might even come out in types of behaviour that ultimately will get you sent out of school. So, it might come out of disrupting a lesson or starting a fight or, you know, causing a load of damage so that you get suspended, so that you get, you get sent home. and then that is actually a way to get out of the situation that’s causing the anxiety. So, yeah, it’s asking the question, you know, rather than, you know, someone could have just said for you, Shova, you know, oh, she’s just choosing not to be at school. You know, she’s very smart, she has friends, she could just decide to be here. But actually, it sounds like you, know, people at school and your sisters try to understand what’s going on for you. What does it feel like, you know, what helps? I love that idea of your sister being like, well, if I make her laugh, it distracts her. And that’s just people around you being curious and trying to understand. And I love that thing you said about the trial and error as well. That’s kind of, well, let’s see if this works and maybe it doesn’t. Let’s try and get it right for Shova. And that approach, I think, is really important.
Maddi: We do have a question, don’t we, that we ask everybody at the end of our podcast, which Órlaith always asks.
Órlaith: We do. We always like to ask our guests, what do you do in your life to help you remember that you’re not alone?
Shova: I speak to my family, I speak to my friends, I speak to my therapist. Just look at the community I have, and if I need to, I’ll just call my sisters up and just be like, hey, what are you guys doing?
Maddi: It’s so nice that you’ve got, you’ve got that, in your family, I think. And it sounds like your sisters have really been the kind of… it feels like we’ve talked about, I feel like I know her and I don’t, but we’ve, we’ve talked about them a lot, haven’t we? And I feel like that’s, that’s definitely a common theme here, is that connection, with someone who just really knows you so well that they can, they can support you but also push you as well when they need to and they know your limits. Yeah. Thank you so much. Really, genuinely thank you so much. That was great.
Órlaith: I thought it was brilliant.
Maddi: Yeah. So relatable for so many people and families right now that are having to either support, you know, someone who’s struggling to attend school or that young person themselves.
Órlaith: I think it can really help people.
Maddi: Yeah.
Órlaith: We discussed some heavy subjects today, so remember that you can find advice and links to support services on NottAlone.org.uk. You are not alone.
