The NottAlone Podcast
Real talk about mental health with Dr Orlaith Green and Dr Maddi Popoola
Series one, episode two: Navigating school attendance and anxiety
Episode description
Join hosts Maddi and Orlaith for an enlightening discussion with Charlotte Lewis-Gordon, the Mental Health Improving Attendance Team Manager at Nottingham City Council.
In this episode, we discuss the complex connection between anxiety and school attendance. Charlotte sheds light on the challenges of Emotional Behavioural School Avoidance (EBSA) and shares effective strategies to support children in returning to education, whether that means re-joining a traditional school setting, engaging in online tutoring, or exploring other alternatives.
We also examine the influence of social media, digital bullying, and feelings of loneliness and isolation on school attendance, identifying key barriers that students encounter. This episode is packed with valuable insights for parents, teachers, and students navigating anxiety-related school challenges. Don’t miss this opportunity to gain a deeper understanding and practical advice on supporting children’s educational journeys.
Transcript of episode
Music: Whatever you’re going through, I hope you know you are not alone…
Maddi: Ey up! Welcome to the NottAlone podcast. I’m Maddi.
Orlaith: And I’m Orlaith.
Maddi: We are the co-founders of NottAlone. We’re both also educational psychologists and we’re both parents. We are so thrilled that you’ve clicked onto this podcast to join us as we delve into all things mental health and wellbeing.
Orlaith: Let’s face it, we all encounter challenges and tough times in our lives. So, we want to talk about these experiences in the hope it helps others and reminds you it’s okay to not be okay. No matter what you’re going through, you are not alone.
Maddi: We will be having real conversations about mental health. Some topics will be challenging and may be upsetting, so please do listen with care.
Orlaith: Today we’re having a really interesting conversation about mental health and school attendance. We have a very special guest. We’re going to let her introduce herself. But just to let you know what we’re going to talk about today, we really want to hear from young people who are struggling to attend school. What does it feel like and what can help? We hope you enjoy the conversation.
Music
Orlaith: Hello everybody and welcome back to the NottAlone podcast. We’re really excited today because we have our first ever podcast guest.
Maddi: Woohoo.
Orlaith: Hi Charlotte.
Charlotte: Hello. So excited to be here.
Maddi: She’s been like a child all day, like an excitable.
Charlotte: Is it time? Is it time?
Maddi: And she’s not very well as well, so bless you. Thank you, Charlotte, so much for joining us.
Charlotte: Wouldn’t miss this opportunity.
Maddi: To talk about school attendance today, we’re talking about. So, school attendance specifically related to, children, young people who are experiencing anxiety relating to, in relation to attending school. So, you may or may not know that statistics show that since 2018, the rate of what we term persistent absence, rightly or wrongly, which I believe is below 90%, attendance has doubled. And we’ve obviously had a global pandemic since then, so I think there are some attributions that can be made towards, towards that and the impact of that on school attendance. But it’s, it’s important to think about mental health, isn’t it? I guess in relation to school attendance, what that means. And Charlotte, just give listeners a quick overview of your job and what you do.
Charlotte: Okay, well, I’ll start with that I’m a mum, I think that’s ah, massive for me.
Orlaith: Uh oh
Charlotte: So, I’m a mom to two children. But as a professional I have worked in education for, I’m gonna sound old now, a long time, since 2008. And I’ve done a number of roles and the last one that I left was being a senior leader in education, particularly for with oversight of pastoral and attendance. So naturally a topic really close to my heart. But, I now work for the Mental Health Improving Attendance team and so fairly new into that role but really, really enjoying being able to support young people that aren’t able to access education or struggling to access education for a number of reasons. And I’ll go into some of those later maybe, but lots of different reasons. And so, for me, being able to step away from kind of the day to day of schools and make difference to young people that aren’t actually in the building is amazing.
Orlaith: Oh, brilliant. Thanks so much for coming. That’s really why we wanted to get you in here, wasn’t it? To hear from you because you’ve been in schools, you’ve been working with young people and families and then you’re working with them directly in your new role. And we’re really interested to hear your stories, your tips, your stories of hope. It’s going to be brilliant.
Maddi: So, tell us a little bit more about your team and what they do and also who, what genius came up with the idea of this team? Tell everyone.
Charlotte: There’s a bit of these, a theme, isn’t there, on these podcasts that we talk a bit about ideas and them be Maddi’s ideas. So, in terms of the team, I’ll say it again because it is a bit of a mouthful. So, we’re referred to as MHIAT and that is the Mental Health Improving Attendance Team. And it’s a really exciting team because it’s built up of lots of different practitioners from different backgrounds. So, we’ve got practitioners that are from education, ex teachers. We’ve got practitioners that have worked on secure units, working with adults and young people with mental health. We’ve got a little bit of everything which makes it really special and unique. So, there’s myself that manages the team. There’s a specialist. And there’s like their range of trained mental health practitioners, but also family support workers. I’m looking at Maddi to check I’ve not missed anyone. And we’re new to Nottingham City, so a new team already really, really busy because it was a great idea and it’s, it’s clearly needed across the city. So, the way that schools refer to our team is that if a young person has missed school for 15 school days, then they can make a referral, and we would look at how we can support them. And we’d expect that school have tried various things before we work with them, and we would also, you know, explicitly look at what that mental health need is and really try to address that before the return to school or education. Say school, but actually for some young people, it’s not school its alternative provision, or online tutoring.
Orlaith: If you are a parent or a teacher and your child is really struggling with attendance, how does it all play out? What does it all mean? Because it can really feel, sometimes parents will say to us, you know, they don’t know what to do. They don’t know how they’re ever going to get out of this place that they’re in. They didn’t see how it’s ever going to get better.
Charlotte: Yeah.
Orlaith: And. And so, it’d be good to sort of go through the story of that and hear from you about what people have said and what’s helped along the way at the different points. What do you think?
Charlotte: Yeah, definitely.
Maddi: There’s lots of, there’s lots of acronyms, isn’t there? Around school attendance as well? I think.
Orlaith: Start with definitions.
Charlotte: Yeah, good idea.
Maddi: Yeah. So, if you’re, if you’re a parent, I think, and you’ve got a child who’s struggling to attend school and it’s kind of assumed to be linked to their mental health, a term that you might hear a lot is something called EBSA. EBSA and that means Emotionally Based School Avoidance. So, it’s a term, it’s a term that’s used quite widely, I think, across the education sector. Definitely. And possibly a bit of a mental health as well. But I think the first time you hear that you’re like, what, you know, what does that mean? And I guess what it’s, what it’s intended to mean is just the idea that if a child is struggling to attend school, it may possibly be linked to their mental health or their emotional barriers.
Orlaith: Exactly. so yeah, might hear different terminology as well.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: For the same thing. So, some people use the language anxiety related non-attendance or ARNA, I think in some of the research.
Maddi: Not a Frozen movie.
Orlaith: Yes.
Maddi: Let it go.
Orlaith: I think in some of the research they talk about school refusal and a lot of the language around it is difficult because it’s like the child is intentionally refusing or avoiding and it’s making that suggestion that they could go if they wanted to.
Charlotte: There’s a little bit more awareness of that. Only recently though, where I know from being in school, kind of trying to really get. To think about the change in language. Because you’re right, that has typically for years been the way that it’s, said. And that is really unfair, isn’t it? If you can’t access school for a mental health reason and you’re really struggling to then be, you know, called, you know, it be said that under those categories, that feels like it’s all your fault and it adds to kind of that blame.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: But from the, you know, from the children and young people and the families that you work with, how do they describe it? Like, what do they say? How does it start? What does it feel like? What language do they use?
Charlotte: I think first and foremost, it’s different for every single one. And that’s why this is a really interesting topic to explore because one size doesn’t fit all. And so, because of that, people struggle, don’t they? Because actually it’s so varied. So, they might talk to someone else, and it looks so different for their child. So, they feel quite isolated in that. But I think generally, it’s important to say that school, anxiety can start at a really young age. I think the pandemic definitely has impacted that. I know even for my own children, I saw a huge difference between before the pandemic and then afterwards. My daughter, particularly, who always loved school and thrive, really struggled to return after that lockdown. Used to get really emotional, struggled to leave me. And that was hard as a parent to also experience that. So, I think there’s kind of that, sometimes that physical goodbye can be really challenging. Sometimes it’s the feeling of crossing over the school door, like literally going from outside. They might walk. The walk to school’s fine, that’s okay. But then they get to the building and suddenly it’s overwhelming, can’t manage it. The amount of conversations I’ve had in car parks, because it’s, it’s kind of, that is stop, it’s, I can’t, can’t go any further. And sometimes that can be a frozen state that someone literally will, you know, physically freeze and can’t do it. Sometimes it’s to run away and remove themselves from the situation. They’ve come so far. But then try to run. And sometimes, which we talk a lot about in our team is having that psychological partner to get you through the door. And so, when I was working in school, it was often staff that knew the child well, going out, talking to them about what the challenge was for that day and just taking that moment to be in that, you know, space with them, reassure them and walk through reception with them. And it was often a beautiful thing to see because you could see that without that adult that knew them, they wouldn’t have made it through something. Ah, that then is, it’s that sense of belonging and someone knowing the child that makes huge difference.
Orlaith: Yeah. Lots of schools call that meet and greet, don’t they? It sounds so simple, but it’s really amazing to hear you talk about that, how powerful it can be.
Maddi: Yeah. Can I tell you a story about psychological partners?
Orlaith: Yes.
Maddi: Oh, right. So, I talk about this all the time, but I think it’s a really interesting example. So, was it last year or the year before? I can’t remember. During European court, England won a penalty shootout, which was, you know, pretty incredible.
Orlaith: Because we never do that.
Charlotte: Right.
Maddi: We never do that.
Maddi: So, my husband mentioned something to me about something he’d seen on YouTube about, this idea that a new psychologist within the England football team had brought in to the team around creating a psychological partner for the players. So, think about, how old some of those players are. Right. Some of them are really young and the stage is ginormous, isn’t it? I’m comparing this in my mind, you see, to this little, you know, reception kid or year one that’s coming into primary school, you know, where it would be, you know, 60 children per year group is big, isn’t it? You know, like when you’re that little and you’re kind of looking, you’re looking up. There’s all these people on the playground, you know, like, a lot of them are a lot bigger than you. So, what they did on the England football team is they, developed this idea of psychological partners and then when they were doing the penalty shootout. So, I don’t know if you know much about football, but I think when you take a penalty and you’re the person taking the penalty, typically the rest of the team will stay on a halfway line and you have to walk pretty much all the way to like, the penalty spot. It’s a long walk i’n’t it.
Charlotte: You can see them looking on, don’t you, as well? It’s a big moment.
Maddi: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. And I think. So, what they did is they introduced this idea, and I don’t think, the partner is allowed to walk them all the way up, but they’re allowed to work and walk them to a certain point. So, everyone had a psychological partner walking them a certain distance towards the spot. And then most importantly, what I think is that they then walk them back. So, the psychological partners had, had, kind of scripts as well, things that they could say to their partner. And then you imagine missing and then having to, you know, walk back in front of that crowd. But doing that with somebody else, makes so much difference. And it’s the same psychological principle, isn’t it, when you think about it? It’s that idea of just walking alongside me, you know, and that’s why we do meet and greet. That’s why we have key adults in schools and all those kind of strategies that you would put in place.
Orlaith: It’s like someone else is there to hold the heavy feeling. Whether it’s worry, fear, anger, just the weight of half of it is easier to manage.
Maddi: A problem shared. It’s such a cliche, but it’s so true.
Charlotte: They call it soft start as well sometimes. And so sometimes I think schools have adapted kind of having, spaces where, children, young people come in and maybe have some breakfast and a chat about the day rather than go in and then it’s straight to lesson, it’s straight to learning, which we do see a lot of. It’s busy, there’s lots to fit in at schools. And so, I think that can help as well, that actually just to create that sense of belonging, that culture of the school that actually you belong not just here, just we can have a chat in the morning, we can warm you up to the day. Just to connect, I think connection is so important. In my, kind of time in school, a lot of my time was spent really encouraging staff to think about their conversation with children. If they’ve not seen a child for maybe a week, then rather than say, oh, nice for you to join us, you know, in that maybe sarcastic manner without being, you know, not intending to be negative, but actually, how lovely to see you, you know. And those little kind, subtle changes around language make world of difference to someone that’s not been in for a few days.
Maddi: What do you think? So, if I’m, if I’m a child and I am feeling anxious about attending school, what would that feel like, do you think? What do children say about those feelings? What’s their experience?
Charlotte: Often you hear the words lonely. No one understands me. Very, no one cares. I feel like I can’t do it. It’s kind of that, lack of hope. I would say sometimes, it’s that, it’s just too much. There’s too much to understand. Maybe those quite isolating words, where it’s, I’m on my own in this and there’s lots of people, but they’re maybe not my people. And there’s not that connection, with adults or children sometimes, or it might be to what they’re expected to do. That actually that can cause anxiety, that, you know, being put on the spot to ask a question, doing PE, it’s usually quite specific. The setup of school can often cause that anxiety for that person. The dinner hall’s too busy, breaks too long, too crowded. That group of older children scare me, you know, and a lot of the time other young people don’t intend to do that, but it’s how you know, that person feels in that moment.
Orlaith: And lots of the things that you’re describing are hard things about school that all children experience. So, what, you know, if you’re a parent or a teacher, what have you found that you might notice when something a bit more, concerning is happening? Do you know what I mean? So, it’s not just someone who doesn’t like PE or someone who has fallen out with their friend. What kind of things should adults be watching out for? To think this is someone who really might stop attending altogether or who’s starting to get overwhelmed by school.
Charlotte: Yeah
Orlaith: It’s a really hard question, but are there any early signs?
Maddi: Good question Orlaith.
Charlotte: I think it’s important to say that we all experience moments of anxiety, don’t we? And so, it’s, kind of how maybe frequent. That’s happening.
Orlaith: Okay, so maybe they’re saying it every day, every morning.
Charlotte: Yeah. It’s not kind of that, you know, holiday Monday where we’re thinking, I’ve got to go back, you know.
Orlaith: And you feel like yourself as well.
Charlotte: Yeah, me too. That’s it.
Maddi: I don’t know what you’re talking about. Yeah, Sunday nights are my favourite.
Orlaith: Oh, yes, you love Monday mornings, don’t you?
Maddi: Can’t wait. Someone’s got to skip into it every time.
Charlotte: So, I think those things definitely like the frequency of it, but also, I suppose their response. So, you know, when we do feel anxious, we might be able to have a conversation with someone and feel that a little bit better. But you’ll notice that when it is really significant, that’s not going to shift. That’s not enough, that’s not going to change. And then maybe that offer of support and if they feel they can manage that or not, you know, and so I think it’s, it’s a big scale.
Maddi: I’ve got another, I’ve got another question. And based on that, so if I was a parent who has got a child who is saying, I don’t want to go, I’m scared, you know, I don’t like it there, they’re mean to me, I don’t want to have to put my hand up in class, etc. As a parent, how do you respond to that? So, the reason I’m asking that as well is because I know that if my child was saying that to me, I would feel anxious as a parent, right? I think I would automatically feel, oh, I don’t know, you know, what I do about this. And I also know as the psychologist that that anxiety would then feed into my child’s anxiety, and I could potentially make it worse. So as a parent, Charlotte, how do you manage your own anxiety to support your child’s anxiety, to not, so as not to increase their anxiety, create that cycle?
Charlotte: Yes, great question. I would say I think it is hard because as a parent myself, I think you, depending on the moment, can respond differently. So, like you say, you can have that anxiety, can’t you? Or you can shut them down if you’re worrying about the day or, you know, they, they can sometimes be. Don’t be silly. It’s gonna be fine, come on. And they don’t feel heard. So, I think ultimately trying to listen and make them feel heard is number one. Just. Oh, you know, thank you for telling me that you feel like this. Do you know why? You know, really trying so hard, because as mums, we’re all, you know, busy rushing around.
Maddi: It is. It’s that morning thing as well, isn’t it? You know, when, you know you’re going to a meeting, you’re trying to get out the door. Like, for me, I’ve got a toddler, like, hanging to my leg also probably not wanting to do something I’ve asked him to do. Like, it’s so much easier. Oh, don’t be silly. Like, you’ll be fine, just crack on, you know.
Charlotte: Yeah. But I think trying as much as we can press pause to just say, you know, make it known that they’ve got your attention and you’re hearing this and that’s important to you because it matters to them.
Orlaith: It’s real for them.
Charlotte: Yeah.
Orlaith: So even from your point of view, if it’s completely irrational and they’re worried about something that you know will be okay, just recognising that in that moment they are scared.
Charlotte: Yeah.
Orlaith: Or they are worried, and their feelings are real, I think sometimes that is the barrier that gets you to the next bit of the conversation, isn’t it?
Charlotte: I think so, definitely. And also, I think it’s that offer, to do something else about it, you know, so they might actually just want to feel heard and say, I’m feeling like this and that might be enough. But if not, and often it’s not, then it’s thinking about, okay, what can I do? Do you want me to email school to make them aware? So, that they feel that they’re not then as soon as they get to school, alone. If they’re struggling to go to school, then I would definitely advise them trying as early as possible to discuss that with someone at school. Because again, you’re not able to be at school with them. And so, it’s creating that connection. It’s creating maybe a safe space. Is it a friend? Is it a particular time of the day that is difficult? It’s trying as much as possible to work out what it is that’s causing that and then being able to put something in place. A lot of schools now are really focused on, pastoral care. We’ve come a long way over the years. And so, I think actually, there is staff that want to be able to support and help, the young person to feel better. Does that answer?
Maddi: Yeah, no, it does. It does. It is just really helpful to think about, isn’t it? Because I think especially early on when. Because it is never. Well, maybe in some cases, but I guess it’s quite rare that a child would literally be, yeah, I’m going, no, I’m not. I think there’s the, it’s that graduated build up, isn’t it? And I think those very early on conversations as a parent, probably, if you can kind of get that bit right, you might then prevent, I guess, a building picture of anxiety. So, it’s not, it’s, it’s about not ignoring it, isn’t it? I think. And I’m gonna put it out there as well. So, for my, our generation my generation, and certainly older than me, this, this was, well, you just go school. You put up and you shut up and you go school. And that’s what, that’s what happened. Like, there was no compassion, there was no nobody, nobody kind of. It just wasn’t, it wasn’t a choice. Most people did go to school. I think school has changed a lot. I think it’s a lot more difficult now, I have to say that. And the world for young people has changed, as we’ve discussed in previous episodes. But I think that’s why we have to respond differently to how probably we were responded to as well as kids.
Orlaith: Those stats that you shared at the start, Maddi, you Know, COVID has played a big factor in school attendance because there was just not on anybody’s radar was there any option of not going to school. And all of a sudden, in living memory, there was a time when you didn’t have to go and some children had a really nice time at home during COVID. And, you know, they had a lot of pressures taken off them. Not, not all children did some, you know, it wasn’t a good, experience for everyone. But I think, what I wanted to know was, in your experience, when you’ve seen really good practise, so when you’ve seen schools and parents and carers doing a fantastic job, what does that look like and what are they doing? What difference are they making?
Charlotte: Yeah, I think what that looks like is definitely that the school are also like, we’ve just spoken about the parent trying to listen. School are also listening and not just shutting down kind of those conversations, you know, really being open to that young person’s voice in this because that’s their experience. Whether school think the canteen’s busy or not, that’s the young person’s voice. The way that I’ve seen really good practise is that if, you know, the school can identify a member of staff that that young person feels comfortable around, to be able to really build that relationship, work out what the problems are, maybe put in circle of friends so, you know, friends that are maybe aware that student X finds this challenge. And so could you maybe meet them before they go to the lunch hall or go to, a club, you know, and do different things, kind of to really try and support those areas that are problematic. I think taking that a little bit further, ah, home visits. Schools do a lot of home visits now. Sometimes they call them safe and well checks and still really trying to keep that connection when a young person is struggling to make it to the building. Like, you know what, we’re going to come and see you then, and trying to make that positive and supportive sometimes, you know, we should be mindful that can feel quite overwhelming for a young person to, have a member of staff turn up at their front door. But if it’s done in the right way, that it’s done in care, and that they maybe know that they’re coming to see them and it is because they’re worried about them. Yeah, that can be really good practise so that the child believes, oh, okay, they really care about me, you know.
Orlaith: And there’s that genuine connection.
Charlotte: Definitely. And this is all a challenge. You know, coming from school background, I am very measured in kind of the expectations of schools. It’s so difficult, trying to, so busy, so.
Orlaith: So busy, so many children need your help.
Charlotte: Exactly. So, I love the fact that that’s where kind of the team that I’m working for now, are able sometimes to bridge that gap and support the school. We’ve seen the, the young person that needs that support but also addressing mental health within the home, maybe to then kind of build that confidence for their return to school. But also, when you were talking there, I was thinking about the fact that young people during COVID, experience that they could have a world just online. And so actually it’s that thing, isn’t it of well why do I need to go to school? Because actually the benefits of having friends, being sociable, doing all of those things, they’ve seen that that can be done online. We never that did we? As you know our experience. So yeah, I think a lot of those kind of practical things that school try to do can make a difference. Sometimes it gets to the point of needing to reduce a timetable for a young person and often that can only be for a period of time because it’s difficult. There’s guidance and so on that schools need to adhere to. But it might be that it’s that gradual return. We call it graded exposure, don’t we? And kind of you know, trying to think about gradually doing something rather than it’s all or nothing.
Orlaith: It’s that age old thing about face your fears, isn’t it? But do it gradually.
Charlotte: Yeah.
Orlaith: It’s interesting you about the, the digital world because I’ve seen some really good practise in schools where they’re, they’re leaning into that so they’re not afraid of that. So, you’re talking about the AV1 robot.
Maddi: To talk about what that is.
Orlaith: Yeah, explain that. But that’s a, it’s a really good example isn’t it, where they’re saying no, children do have a digital life now, so let’s blend it into what school means.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: So, I don’t know if you want to say a bit about them.
Charlotte: Yeah.
Orlaith: And I’m sure other robots are available.
Charlotte: Not sure if they are. Maybe two, maybe three, who knows? Watch this space. So yeah, I think I definitely did the same thing when someone mentioned to me an AV1 robot, a while ago now. And so, these are small robots quite literally, that can be placed within the classroom at school, has to be, you know, all arranged, with the local authorities, not just, can’t buy them down the shop, unfortunately. But they would be basically kind of like a service. You know, the school would make a referral and then once the robot is, kind of deemed an appropriate intervention for a young person, the idea is that this robot would bridge the gap for the young person that’s struggling to leave home and, for them still to access school.
Orlaith: So, what does it look like if you’re a child and a parent and, you know, someone from your team says, right, we’re getting you one of these robots. What actually happens?
Charlotte: So, what actually happens is that you would, you’d have an initial conversation meeting about it where you’d explain that the place that provide these small robots can basically assign one to you.
Orlaith: Is your robots in school when the child’s at home?
Charlotte: So, no schools literally would pay to rent them. It’s like service, but yeah. Then it becomes in school and then you have a, often a designated member of staff or friend that would take it to that child’s space. They, they effectively sounds a bit weird, but replace the child in the physical way in school. So, say their timetable for the day was math, English, science, whatever. The robot will sit through those lessons and the young person that’s at home, who’s connected by their laptop device, can see into the lessons.
Orlaith: They can see what the robot sees.
Charlotte: That’s right. Cool. Yeah. They literally, the eyes are, you know, in the classroom. The class can’t see the young person, but the member of staff can see when the young person at home has a question, lights up to say, you know, I’m enjoying this, I want to participate. And so, they technically are actively involved, which is amazing. I’ve only done, worked with a few so far, of those, but they were successful. And often the idea there is to again, kind of bridge the gap for a period of time. Then it might be that the young person decides to bring the robot in school, you know, be in school with them. And maybe that’s to begin with and then be in school with the robot into a lesson. Yeah.
Orlaith: So, loads of things are going back to the idea of, graded exposure. Loads of things are small steps, step by step, aren’t they? You know, I can hear that in a lot of the things you’re talking about.
Charlotte: Yeah.
Orlaith: Because if you’re at home and you just feel like going to school is impossible, it feels like a mountain, doesn’t it? So much of it sounds like the things that you see that work are breaking it down into small steps. We’re doing this today. Don’t worry about the rest of it.
Charlotte: Yeah, definitely. I think it’s, it’s about being realistic, isn’t it? And if someone, you know, ask you to run a marathon and you’ve not, you’re not a runner, then it’s gonna be difficult. If you start with, say, an app that builds you up to slowly do one, then you’re gonna feel more confident. So, it’s just about that gradual. Let’s try this first, see how that goes. It takes that pressure off, is the idea that you can actually achieve something small and then go a little bit further and it feels better because you’re hopefully feeling more in control than actually doing the whole thing at once. But the robots are, it’s amazing, isn’t it? You know, that’s something that we just never would have seen before, and I think sometimes it’s still quite new. So that can feel a little bit uncertain for schools. But actually, the teams that run the robots are really, you know, experienced of dealing with them. And I know some schools do manage their robots really well, so.
Orlaith: Yeah, but it’s a good example because, you know, lots of schools, for example, will have the children who are at home in the lesson on a Team’s call, on a laptop. Much less high tech, isn’t it?
Maddi: Yeah. And that’s, that’s what we did during COVID isn’t it? You know, people were joining on Google Classroom and those kind of things as well.
Orlaith: So, there’s a lot of opportunity there, isn’t there, for that connection.
Charlotte: Yeah.
Maddi: Charlotte, what, what are the reasons why a child would not want to attend school? Controversial question. So, what is it to see what, you know, like, I suppose, I’m thinking about this idea of kind of anxiety in relation to school, and you’ve talked about a few things already I think that might, might be those kind of barriers and create that anxiety. If you could pick out, say, one or two key themes that you hear most around why school creates anxiety for a child, what would they be?
Charlotte: Oh, big question. I think I definitely go with sense of belonging. I think that the young person wouldn’t say that, but what they’re describing is.
Orlaith: What we would call, yeah, I feel lonely. No one gets me. Those things you say.
Charlotte: Exactly. All of those things are a lack of belonging. And so that ones a big one. One that’s really high up there, which is, again, quite controversial, but interesting because you just think it could fix so many things, possibly is uniform.
Orlaith: Right.
Charlotte: And so, driving here today I saw that, lots of school children had come out and they all had their shirts and ties. It’s a really warm day today, which we don’t get so often in England. But it’s interesting, isn’t it, because a lot of young people do find shirt, the tie, the blazer, all day quite for those that maybe have additional needs, quite physically, you know, just a real strain, actually. And I don’t know maybe how that can feel all day if something, you know, actually causes you kind of physical distress.
Maddi: You know, as well, 80 percent of the world’s population of school children don’t wear uniform. We’re obsessed with it, aren’t we, in this country?
Charlotte: We are.
Maddi: We are obsessed with it. And actually, you know, in my work as a, as a psychologist, educational psychologist, it does come up a lot, doesn’t it, Orlaith? This idea of sensory experience of wearing a school uniform.
Orlaith: Young people tell us that a lot.
Maddi: Yeah, they do.
Orlaith: And I guess that’s our challenge, isn’t it, to, to really, to listen to what our children are telling us.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: And really have a think about how we can support. Where’s reasonable adjustments for children with additional needs. And there’s something about a, pick your battles type approach, isn’t there?
Maddi: Oh, definitely.
Orlaith: There’s huge flexibility in, you know, schools and parents who are doing it well, finding the middle ground, finding different, different things in the uniform.
Charlotte: Yeah.
Orlaith: And, if you think about what is the uniform for and what it. What it helps with, make sure you’re maintaining that, but still making people feel included. I think there’s lots of opportunities, isn’t there?
Maddi: Yeah, I think we’ve gone. I think we’ve gone blazer mad, I have to say, blazer mad in this country. I mean, if you can go to the square mile and walk around and people are in chinos and polo shirts, aren’t they?
Charlotte: So, it’s interesting, isn’t it? It’s such a. I talk about it all day because it is, you know, coming from being in schools and understanding how difficult it can be when you let one or two have that reasonable adjustment and that is the right thing for them. But then sometimes the backlash, if we call it that, of maybe people not understanding why that reasonable adjustment’s been made. And of course, it’s not for us to say, well, that child needs, you know, that’s not. So, it is a really difficult one. But I think maybe if schools generally had the ability to be, you know, more flexible on a whole, you know, we’re talking kind of across the whole country. Maybe that would make it feel better. And we don’t know until someone tries it.
Maddi: So, someone very brave.
Charlotte: Yes.
Maddi: A challenge officially set. Polo shirts and trackers. Hashtag, just saying. Charlotte, moving on. I’m surprised that you didn’t say bullying. So, I’m surprised that that hasn’t. You know, we’ve not talked about that today, have we? And I don’t know how often that comes up. But it’s interesting when we’re talking about mental health and attendance that that doesn’t come up more, I guess.
Charlotte: I think more than the world, bullying, I personally hear social media definitely.
Orlaith: Okay.
Charlotte: And so that’s interesting though because a lot of the time something happens maybe on social media that in our world is a type of bullying, but the young person would see it as maybe, well, that’s happened on social media. Again, it’s that change of the times, you know, not to make us down old, but it is, you know we’d often see that in school we couldn’t put our finger on anything. And actually, that doesn’t mean something wasn’t happening or that it wasn’t a type of bullying. But so much happens now on the online world, so much, that that often creates that sense of isolation. But it’s not actually happened within school, it’s happened online. Does that make sense?
Maddi: It always comes into school, doesn’t it? The lines are blurred, aren’t they?
Charlotte: And so often because of maybe an event online, then the young person won’t want to come in. And so again you could use the word bullying maybe, but it might be a one-off incident. It isn’t, you know, typically what we’d call it, bullying? But it can be really difficult to sort those things out from any point, kind from school’s point, police point, it’s difficult. And so that can often be a huge barrier.
Orlaith: I think for some children as well if they get to the point of not being able to attend or they get to the point of being so worried every day about school that they’re talking about it. If you said to them, you know what’s caused this? They don’t know, because there’s sometimes something happens and then there’s a snowball. And so, I think sometimes parents and school adults can get caught in that. What is it? What is it? We need to figure it out, we need to get to the bottom of it. But they don’t know. And I’ve certainly worked with some young people where it’s not been till a year, two years down the line that they’ve done all this work and they’ve got back to a good place where they can say, I do think this started on that day when this thing happened at school, you know, or I do think this happened when I had, you know, when that person close to me died. Or I do think it was when I felt like… But actually, the snowball effect, it’s more just like a feeling, isn’t it? And kids have talked about it as, like, it’s just a feeling. It’s a heaviness. It’s a weight on my shoulders. I just can’t do it.
Charlotte: Yeah, definitely.
Maddi: You just made me think. Actually, I was actually speaking to a parent a couple of weeks ago, and it wasn’t how old they were, but, she, the mum, recalled a significant incident when the child first started in the school in reception, and he was told off for not having a book bag. Which, to this very little person, I know, Charlotte’s sad face. But she’s doing her sad face it is though, isn’t it? And that, you know, I bet when, when she says told off, I can just imagine that conversation. You know, someone’s saying, have you got your book bag? Oh, where is it? Oh, okay, you’ve forgotten it. Remember to bring it tomorrow, you know, and, like, to the teacher or to the assistant or whoever has said that they probably would never have imagined that that would then be so deeply embedded in that child’s kind of internal world, that they’re then, creating this sense of, I’m scared or I don’t belong here, or kind of all those things that you said. And that’s not to say that that teacher won’t do that again, or any teacher would. But I guess you’re right. It’s about thinking about that individual and what, what the trigger point is or was.
Orlaith: And the thing you were saying about the connection, that is a feeling when you feel connected and you feel valued, isn’t it? And so, no matter what, you might never get to the bottom of it to find out that it was the book bag. But if you do those things you’re talking about, about, they feel important. They feel like someone cares about them. They feel listened to. They’ll feel that, you know, in their chest, you know, but on their face, they’ll smile, and they’ll feel like, you know, warm and connected. And that will be the thing that opens up the opportunity to say, I’ll give it a go. Yeah, try this lesson.
Charlotte: Definitely. And I think that’s ongoing. We used to talk a lot about connection before correction.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Charlotte: And so, it’s that kind of, we know that sometimes young people will need to be asked about the book bag or, you know, but because there’s that connection, hopefully anyway, the time that you need to speak to them about the thing that wrong or they’re not doing doesn’t feel as bad because they can know that you’ve connected with them, so many times that actually the direction I use is a, you know, word is, is okay. Because it’s not you just with them. And I think it is hard, there’s so many rules and things that we need to follow and. But actually, you know, sometimes a young person can go for a school day, and it can be Why you late? Where’s your tie? Have you got this?
Maddi: Yeah.
Charlotte: You know how many times it’s flipping that, isn’t it? And trying to be. How was your evening? How, you feeling today? You have breakfast? You know, trying to create connection the whole day through as much as possible, you know, and it is, it is a challenge.
Maddi: I love that.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Charlotte: Looking for that as much as you can.
Maddi: I love that. I think it’s so simple. So, right. I’m just, again, I’m thinking, thinking about my, my own experience of school but then also my daughters. You know, there are so many points at which, she is corrected throughout a day, you know, and it’s often you’re right, because in little things, uniform, stop talking, stop shouting out. Actually, the language that’s used as part of that is really important, isn’t it? Because actually you just twist that statement round a little bit, and you create connection. Do you know, like every, I suppose everything, every moment that you have an encounter with a young person is an opportunity.
Charlotte: Yeah. It really is.
Orlaith: Karen Treisman, have you heard of her? She’s a clinical psychologist. Yeah. And every interaction is an opportunity for an intervention.
Charlotte: Yeah.
Orlaith: And that’s it, isn’t it?
Charlotte: Yeah, yeah, that’s it. And I think if you track a young person throughout the day, it’d be interesting just to think, you know, how many as the adult times did, I be that positive, you know, connection or was it the negative?
Orlaith: Yes.
Charlotte: And it’s like us as adults, if we go to work and every interaction is, I need this, can you do that? Odd, isn’t it? Whereas you feel like what you did was really good or that’s going well, or it makes a difference. We’re human. And so having that positive spin is so much nicer. It is hard though. It’s, you know, saying this. I’m not pretending it’s easy but trying to have that positive kind of outlook and approach, it makes such a difference. And I think if all of the adults at school are trying, not saying they’ll get it right every time because we’re human but really trying to have that and build that culture, it makes such a difference. And I think, you know, again, that the, the size of schools can impact that and being that community staff, feel supported and so on, it all, all has an impact on that.
Orlaith: But, you know, a lot of this is really helpful for people early on when it’s starting. But some children get into a situation where they haven’t been in school for a year, maybe more than a year. Yeah, parents, it can be really hard for the whole family, can’t it? It can start to affect, parents, jobs, the other children. And I really wondered, what have you seen has worked for those children and those families? Because I think in our work there are some of the parents, aren’t they who say, how is, how is this going to get better? And they’re some of the children who say, you know, I just can’t do it. What, have you seen and where’s the hope from your work?
Charlotte: I was going to say our team have been doing that.
Orlaith: So, what do they do?
Charlotte: Yeah, they, so they will be given a refer, you know, a family, a young person, and really think about kind of who the right person is, the practitioner that’s going to make the most difference to that family based on their experience and so on. And they will really expect to go with that approach of being supportive, of listening, of wanting to connect and build a relationship first and foremost. And so, we often talk about, conversations through a bedroom door and to that often, maybe the first couple of sessions are literally that. We also talk about the consistency, you know, just turning up. Even if you’re not going to get to see the young person, they will still keep going. So again, that consistency of I’m showing up for you, I’m showing up for you, you know, and that in itself can give such a strong message to a young person that’s been struggling. They’ve not been forgotten. We’re not leaving this; we’re going to be persistent. So, they will go make that connection over time often and then really start again. The things we’ve spoken about, to listen to that young person to see, if possible, what it is that’s caused, you know, the, the, not wanting to go into school or not wanting to leave the house again, it can be different things. Really trying to identify that and look at really small steps again of how to build confidence, address the mental health and then look at education, in whatever way that might be.
Maddi: Yeah, I would say as well, I think some, sometimes when it’s that kind of far ingrained, like a, you know, there are some kids that can’t come out of the bedroom, aren’t there? It’s really, that’s really tough, isn’t it? Imagine being that age and feeling so low that you don’t even want to come out of your bedroom. And I think as a parent I must be A, so scary, but also B, where do you go to for help with that? Because most mental health services are community based, so you’d have to get them out of the bedroom. And just by nature. This is what’s a great thing, isn’t it, about your team, Charlotte, is that they do that work in the, you know, in the home environment, which is great. But I also do think that one of the things that sometimes you have to do is take school off the table. You know, school is the kind of trigger factor. And I’m not talking about education being off the table, I’m talking about school being off the table.
Orlaith: And not the connections either. Not the people at school, the connections from the friends, the key people.
Maddi: So, for the anxiety to be reduced, those things have to be removed from the situation. And I think that’s quite dire. It sounds dire, doesn’t it? And it sounds quite extreme. But in an extreme case and circumstance, I think sometimes we have to think outside the box in terms of education. You know, education is this huge wide lens and sometimes school can be quite narrow in terms of what it offers. And I think, accepting that as a parent, your child must be so challenging to think that they’re not going to go through this normal in inverted commas, grain or line or track of what you imagine they should be doing because we’re told they should be going to school, etc. And I think it’s okay if you’re in that situation to accept that actually, education is lifelong and it’s bigger than what you’re experiencing right now and be okay with that.
Orlaith: And when you open that up, that creativity, it relieves the pressure from everyone.
Maddi: Totally. Yeah, totally.
Orlaith: And then it creates the space for creative ideas, building it back up, starting with the things that you enjoy, that you are good at, working towards the things that are hard.
Maddi: Definitely. Yeah.
Charlotte: I think it’d be nice to think that, you know, as time goes on that will become more normalised. It’s not at the minute unfortunately it is a really difficult situation like you say. And for some families that is, it is their reality, and we see that with the cases that we support. You know, and they’re amazing young people, amazing resilient parents, because it can be so hard because it is, it isn’t as normal in society, if I use that word. It’s not kind of your typical case. And so, I think definitely considering like thinking outside the box, looking at what works for that young person, being more personal, that actually the huge building and the thousands of children out hundreds isn’t for you is okay. And so, like you say, education for you might look different and that’s all right as well. But we’ve got so much work to do around that to make sure people know that that is okay. And that support is there for them as well, even though it can feel as a parent really hard to find. It is there. And that’s where I think, you know, raising awareness still with schools, well about our team, and so that they’re not feeling kind of isolated in that, that there is something for everyone is just as working out what that is, what’s going to work.
Orlaith: I think schools can take that on board too. Oh yeah. I think we see some of our schools thinking about education in its broadest sense, don’t we? Yeah. Creating different types of learning environments in the school building. Different spaces, different places for different people.
Charlotte: Yeah.
Orlaith: And when it works really well, you can have a child who can access different bits and pieces but still have the connections of the staff, the teachers and even the friends sometimes.
Charlotte: Yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, talking about the AV1 robots, it all shows, doesn’t it, that we’re moving, moving with this and that actually there’s a need for it. And so that shows that there is a lot of young people in this situation, and we don’t want anyone to be missed. They need to be able to still be supported. And I think what’s key is that their mental health is addressed first. Yes, education’s important and of course it is, and you know, great. But actually, your young person’s well-being health you know, is key. That is the most important thing.
Orlaith: You’ve got to be ready to learn, don’t you?
Charlotte: Absolutely. We talk about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, and you know, how do you learn if actually you’ve not got the basic feeling of, you know, the basic things that you need first, you know.
Maddi: I mean, again, something that we talk about a lot, but comes back to schools as well, the idea of inclusion for everybody, doesn’t it? And I think we can probably end on a kind of a thought and a comment around how we imagine education for the future. You know, why are we in a situation where we have double the amount of children who are what we would deem to be persistently absent? Whether you agree with that statement or not, why would a child not want to attend school? Why would school be a key contributing factor in a child’s deteriorating mental health? And I think these questions are big and I think they’re things that need to be considered from a wider lens and perspective. Schools are doing a great job with what they have.
Charlotte: Absolutely.
Maddi: As are parents. But, you know, something, something’s gotta change because it’s not working right now for a lot of children, it’s not working. Charlotte, thank you so much.
Orlaith: We have a question, don’t we, that we want to ask all our guests to finish up. We want to know what do you do in your life to help you to remember that you’re not alone?
Charlotte: Oh.
Maddi: She’s on the spot.
Charlotte: Give me a minute.
Maddi: Voice has gone croaky. Oh, that’s because she’s poorly.
Charlotte: Pressure, Pressure. I think for me it is connecting. So again, something that we’ve spoken a lot about, but whether that be meet my sister for a walk and a moan, whether it’s spending time with my family, my husband and children, you know, however that is, it’s, it’s connecting to remind myself I’m not alone. Or sometimes it is just going for a run and having time alone. But to help, help me to process. Yeah. And that’s it. And, and kind of have that space. I love fresh air first thing in the morning. You know, it just feels like, ah, right, what the day have ahead sort of thing. So, yeah, I think for me, I love talking. So happy to be your guest today. Thank you so much. Talking to someone as well.
Maddi: Yeah, it’s been great. I think it’s really, it’s been really insightful, Charlotte, thinking about ways to help. Definitely. And if you’re a parent out there listening, I think hopefully that’s, that’s been a helpful conversation to kind of listen in on. I know it certainly left me thinking and, you know, wondering about if I’m, if I’m getting it right.
Charlotte: I think above all, it’s okay to not have all the answers. You know, we don’t none of us do. Whether we’re professionals, whether we’re a parent, whatever it is. Talking is important, isn’t it, to work it out together? I think when you’ve got a couple of you, you work it out and you get a plan and that makes the difference so that you’re not alone in it.
Maddi: You’re not alone, guys, there it is, the message. thank you for listening today. We will see you next time.
Orlaith: We discussed some heavy subjects today, so remember that you can find advice and links to support services on nottalone.org.uk. You are not alone.
Music: Whatever you’re going through, I hope you know you are not alone…
