The NottAlone Podcast
Real talk about mental health with Dr Orlaith Green and Dr Maddi Popoola
Series one, episode three: Finding your thing – the power of hobbies and creative expression
Episode description
In this episode, Maddi and Orlaith explore the powerful connection between physical activity, creativity, and mental health wellbeing.
They’re joined by Simon Green from Freedom Foundation, an organisation dedicated to empowering children and young people, building confidence and self-worth through music, dance, spoken word poetry and creative expression.
Simon shares stories and insights from the young people he works with, exploring the challenges they face, and how finding a creative outlet can be life-changing. Together, they discuss the role adults play in helping children discover their passions and the importance of movement and creativity in developing emotional resilience.
An inspiring conversation about self-expression, mental health, and the joy of finding ‘your thing’.
Transcript of episode
Music: Whatever you’re going through, I hope you know you are not alone…
Maddi: Ey up! Welcome to the NottAlone podcast. I’m Maddi.
Orlaith: And I’m Orlaith.
Maddi: We are the co-founders of NottAlone. We’re both also educational psychologists and we’re both parents. We are so thrilled that you’ve clicked onto this podcast to join us as we delve into all things mental health and wellbeing.
Orlaith: Let’s face it, we all encounter challenges and tough times in our lives. So, we want to talk about these experiences in the hope it helps others and reminds you it’s okay to not be okay. No matter what you’re going through, you are not alone.
Maddi: We will be having real conversations about mental health. Some topics will be challenging and may be upsetting, so please do listen with care.
Orlaith: Welcome back to another episode. Today we’re going to be talking about how to find your thing, the thing you care about, the thing that makes you really enjoy yourself. We’re focusing today on music and the creative arts and physical activity.
Maddi: We’ve got a very special guest on Simon who’s going to be talking to us about examples from his professional and his personal life.
Orlaith: We hope you enjoy the conversation.
Music
Maddi: Welcome everybody. We’ve got a special guest here with us today. He’s wincing at the word special. Simon, you are so special.
Simon: Thanks.
Maddi: Tell everybody your full name.
Simon: My name is Simon Charles William Green.
Maddi: Simon Charles William Green, everybody.
Simon: Junior.
Maddi: Delighted to make your acquaintance.
Simon: Thank you very much.
Orlaith: Also known as Si.
Simon: Yes also known as Si. Yeah, we’ll go with that. We’ll go with that.
Maddi: Welcome. Si. Thank you so much for being here. We really do appreciate you coming on. So, this episode is going to focus on the link between physical and mental health. We are hopefully gonna talk a little bit about what you do with young people and how we can use physical activity and some of the creative activities that you use to support young people and their mental health.
Orlaith: So yeah, do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself and Freedom Foundation? Who you are, what you’re all about?
Simon: Yeah, yeah, sure, yeah. So, I work as the head of operations at Freedom Foundation. It’s been going for about seven, eight years now. And we work with young people around their mental health and well-being. But using the creative arts such as singing and songwriting, dancing, spoken word poetry, and just giving them another outlet and a way to express themselves than, other than they would in a mainstream classroom. We’ve got obviously different, various programmes to work with different cohorts of young people, because obviously the challenge is always evolving, so we have to adapt. But we don’t just work in schools, we work in the community as well. And just my day to day role is just, I say just but just liaising with schools and having that constant communication, because that’s, we found that that’s the, been one of the biggest challenges, having the schools on board and keeping that communication and that whole kind of, not round robin, I don’t know what the word is, but having that circle of we work with the children, they work with us, we work with the school, and we’re all on the same page.
Orlaith: Build those links.
Simon: Yeah, absolutely.
Orlaith: How did you get into it?
Simon: So? Well, my background isn’t. Is. Isn’t in education. My background is I was a professional, actor, singer, dancer.
Maddi: Really? I never knew that. No, I kind of did. We’ve had this conversation.
Simon: So, I did, I worked in the west end for 18 years. I did 12 west end shows. I performed in Berlin. Yeah, I got to perform all over the world. that was my, that was my background.
Maddi: That’s amazing.
Simon: And then I just did about seven years ago, I was like, oh, I’m done. It was just conveyor belt. And I was like, I’m done with the London life. It’s just. It’s a lot down there. And then I always said when I left Nottingham, I’d never come back.
Maddi: And you did. Here we are.
Simon: I did, yeah. The older I got, I wanted to be closer to my family.
Maddi: I said that too. I was in London, as you know, and it’s. There’s a pull to your people.
Simon: Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. and then I just came back and it’s like I started all over again. I was like. I didn’t know what I was gonna do. I knew when I was doing musical theatre, I used to do workshops down the country at different dance schools or in schools. And I’m passing on that knowledge. And I knew that I liked doing that. So, when I came back, I was like, right, I’ll keep doing that. And I had people interested. Cause I was just currently just coming out of a West End show. So, teachers were like, oh, we’ll get this guy in and like, work with the kids. And then that kind of like fell off. And then my mate, who, he’s got like a teacher placement, he was like, oh, if you like working with kids, why don’t you go and work with kids in school? So, I did. I was with a TA, and they gave me the bad bunch, they call it like the bottom set or the naughty, badly behaved children. And I loved it. And I didn’t have teacher etiquette in the slightest, and I think. But I felt like that helped me because I was just talking to them, as in they’re mates. And then, you know, there obviously has to be a dynamic of teacher and student, but just asking about, how you doing, how’s your day, what you been up to? Or whereabouts are you from? And asking the normal questions. And, and I like a bit of banter. So, I remember my first day teaching and, I just had work to give to the kids. And, I said, look, to get the work done. They were talking and they were saying something. I said, what have you got to say? I went, if you want to say something, say at the end of the class, but make sure you get your work done. We’ll have five minutes. So that meant, they were like, oh, brilliant. So, they did the work. So, I said, do you want to tell me what you. What. What you were saying over. No, sir, we’ll get in trouble. I was like, no, you can say, it’s fine. Well, we’re just wondering, like, why are you so bald? And I literally. I went hot. I literally was like. And all the class went, ohhhh, and mine, I’ve got. We’ve got. I’m quite, I’m immature. I am immature. I’m not. I’m not, I’m not. I’m not. Yeah, I’m. I’m far from being mature. And my natural thing is to fire back with banter. So, I’m about to say this. So, the kid said, oh, why are you so bald? And I said. And instantly I was like, that’s funny that. I went, why are your teeth so yellow? To this kid. And he literally was like, you can’t say that. But it was like, look, you give it, you got to take it. And, just from then it just worked. I didn’t have any qualifications as a teacher, but I just knew how to get children engaged.
Orlaith: How to connect with them.
Simon: Yeah, how to build. I think I say, I’d say I’m quite good at building relationships quickly, in a classroom. And, then the school said, we’d like to put you through your teacher qualification, which was amazing. And then I became a teacher of English.
Orlaith: Wow.
Simon: Just so different from my background. But I loved English at school, so I was kind of learning on the job. And then COVID happened all of that, and I was like, I need to step away and do something different. And then my sister was like, why don’t you come and work at Freedom Foundation? And I was like, so you’ll be my boss? And she was like, yeah.
Maddi: Tell me about some of the young people that are referred into some of your programmes. So, like, what. What is it that you would say is something about those young people that are really benefiting from what you do? Like, why those. You know, what. Why those young people? What is it that you think that.
Simon: So, depending on when we first engage with the school, we just send them, like, a catalogue of programmes that we’ve got, that would work better with different cohorts for different needs. Mainly it’s all-around mental health, but more around, some of them could be. Some of the programmes are more hard, like, targeting children that are risk of exclusion. So, I don’t know if I’ll talk about that, talk about the programme. But it’s a programme called DRIL. So that’s about Demonstrating Resilience, Inspiring Lives. We created that because the hook was drill music was popular with kids. And the kids that we were working with, they were into that music. It was like, okay, well, how can we jump on this, like, flip it and drill had a lot of bad, like, connotations of, like, you know, gang culture and violence. So, we created a programme which was based on 12 weeks. We’d like to create a programme that’s a year, because we’re not naive enough to think that we can build relationships up in 12 weeks. Because on our training plan, we go right in the first two weeks, you’re going to build those relationships up and that trust, and then you can do this. It doesn’t work like that. It takes minimum 12 weeks to build up that trust. But we have to do what we can do with the time that we’ve got with them. But, yeah, we have young people that are risk of exclusion or lack motivation. So, we have our motivational mornings programmes, which is all of our programmes around music. Yeah, that’s like, right, okay, basically, that’s basically music. and singing and songwriting. More rapping now, I feel that’s become more popular in terms of. Especially for working with kids at risk for exclusion. You know, you can’t, you know, assume that the kids are not going to like to sing. But that’s the sort of what we found. Like, we say to, some year 10 boys that are, risk of exclusion and we’re working with them, we’d like you to sing a song. They’re like, sorry, like, it’s not their thing. But the common thing is rapping or writing poetry.
Maddi: So, what is it about that, then? What is it about the music or that form of expression that is changing in terms of a child’s mental health? So, what is it about it? That’s. What’s the mechanism for change, do you think?
Simon: With music as well we try and introduce them to different genres of music, that they wouldn’t necessarily listen to. And it’s a bit of a challenge at first because they sat there listening, might be listening to classical music or they might listen to death metal or, I don’t know, Motown or.
Maddi: The best music production is done with classical music and old samples, though, isn’t it?
Simon: Yeah. And you know when you talk to them about the music history of stuff, and then they’re like, okay. And how the music can affect their emotions and regulate how we use that to regulate the emotions or how to motivate you. Like, in the morning, what do you do? Do you want to listen? What music to listen to? Do you listen to the radio? What do you listen to on your phone? Why do you listen to that? Because it makes you feel a certain type of way or why don’t you like that music? But I feel like we try to push that, you know, no matter what’s going on in your life, you listen to a song or a certain piece of music, it can have the, it can have the reverse effect of how you’re feeling. Or if you’re feeling sad when you listen. When you’re feeling sad, do you listen to an upbeat song? I don’t. If I’m feeling sad about something, I listen to, I listen to a slow song. Why is that? It’s because you want to wallow in that. You want to go, I want. They want. They. They can understand how I’m. That artist can understand how I’m feeling. I can relate to that. So, you’re having a conversation without having a conversation. That’s what we’re trying to push.
Orlaith: Using the music to, like, process the emotions, isn’t it? It’s not necessarily to make. To try and make you feel a different way. It’s to help you understand and process what’s going on for you in the moment.
Simon: Yeah, I thought this. There’s something, which kind of. When it materialised, while we created that side of the programme, it was based on. I had a conversation as well with my sister, about why do you wallow in certain things about sad, sad songs? And it’s quite, it’s quite funny, actually. But I was. It’s from when I was at primary school, and we used to, used to have like, dances at primary school, like discos. And I remember there was a girl in the year above me and I, I, was like, besotted with her. Like, I was like, I’m gonna dance with her at the disco. And she didn’t. She danced with my friend. And I sat down in the PE Hall. We just had a dance competition. I won a rave dummy. I won a rave dummy. So, I was happy.
Maddi: And they were.
Simon: Yeah. And I was sat. I was sat in the corner, and I was, mortified, gutted.
Simon: I went home, went in the living room.
Maddi: What song did you put on? That’s what I want to know.
Simon: Whitney Houston, I Will Always Love You. And then cried.
Orlaith: You heard it here.
Simon: But actually, I felt better. I cried. I kept pressing rewind. Yeah. Because it’s a cassette tape. I kept pressing rewind and rewind and I just kept listening to this. And then I was like. I was like, fine. And I said to the sister, I was like, it’s funny that, but you do do those things. That’s what I will always remember. It’s weird. That’s. It’s memories that you also.
Maddi: How old were you, do you reckon, then?
Simon: Seven, eight?
Maddi: Yeah. And like, imagine even at that age. So, you know, before, like, developmentally, you probably even have that much emotional intelligence to even know or understand the link between what you’re doing there and why you’re doing it. But you did because it was innate. Like, I need to wallow here.
Orlaith: We’ve talked a bit about, helping children to understand feelings by talking to them. But that is such a good example that if you either find it really hard to talk about feelings or you haven’t got very good speech and language skills, there’s an option there for you to process and talk through the feeling and not just try and change the feeling, but to actually just lean into it and let it. Let it flow and figure out what it is. And music gives kids that option.
Simon: So that’s. That’s as well. That’s part linked to the dance and movement section. It’s. Sometimes we. Young, young people know how to express, like you said, verbally how they’re feeling. They know how they feel, but they don’t have to express it, which then can become frustration and then they can act out. So, if they’re feeling. Sometimes they’re feeling. At starting session, they’re feeling a certain type of way. You feel like okay, what type of music do you, like, listen to? And it could be. Choose a song that. That represents how you’re feeling. It could be, like, really harsh. And it’s like, okay, then move around and you’ll see, like, erratic moves. It’s not. It’s movement, its dance, but it’s movement, expression of how they’re feeling. And then some days they’ll come in, they’ll just be like, sat and be chilling or just like, swaying side to side. Because they’re feeling calm. But that’s the effect it can have. And when yeah.
Orlaith: And so, I’m interested. You’ve worked with so many kids who, you know, on the face of it, if we see them in schools or their parents or carers see them, they’re not saying very much about how they’re feeling. And I think you’re saying you get to know them over time. So, when you’ve understood a bit more about children who aren’t motivated or they’re not engaged, what do you know from those kids about what they’re struggling with, what mental health issues they have? What do they say? How do they describe what’s going on for them?
Simon: It can vary. I mean, there’s been a lot of themes about things that happen outside of school, at home, but a massive common theme is in school of not feeling heard, not feeling engaged and not feeling that the things that they’re being taught are relevant to them. Which could spark another conversation about the whole education system. But that’s for another thing. But they just find that there’s nothing for them to get their teeth into and they just. They’re bored. Yeah, they’re bored.
Maddi: It sounds to me like what you’re describing is, I guess, a lack of connection.
Simon: Yeah, yeah.
Maddi: So you’re giving them something to connect with because you’ve talked quite a lot about that, about the idea of human connection, but then also a connection with something that they’re good at as well. Like, and. And when you’re good at something, you are more likely to feel like you want to do it because it’s linked to the idea of motivation, isn’t it? Yeah, this sense of competence. Same as having people that you connect with as well. It’s like you’re finding your tribe, you’re finding, you know, you’re seeing in life kind of thing.
Simon: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Orlaith: And I think, I think what I’m hearing is that a lot of children, young people that come to kind of end up kind of on your programmes are children that don’t feel that connection as part of school potentially, or maybe even as part of their family.
Simon: Yeah, yeah, I’d say, I’d say so. They just. I said that that whole. We, we say we’ve got, you know, it’s safe, but it’s not secret in our, ah, in a, it’s a safe space for them to vocalise, to vocalise how they feel. But they’re, but they’re aware that, you know, if there is something that’s flagged, that we have to go obviously go through the safeguarding procedures, we have to report that, et cetera, et cetera. But there’s not, it’s not meant to be. If we’re working in a school, we are in a school, but it’s not a classroom setting because we speak to the teachers and they’re like, okay, so what do you want? Do you want a classroom? Do you want some desks? And I’m like, not really. Just somewhere they can sit, and chill and we can just do what we do as long as we’ve got, ah, a projector screen that we can do, work a visual aid from. And it’s away from other classrooms because we do use music. We just want them to come in. When they come into sessions, we’ve got music playing like, it’s like, hey, we don’t want it to feel formalised in the, in the slightest. I want it to be they’re in school but you’re in a different space now.
Maddi: It must be quite hard for them to, I imagine, quite hard for you to get to them, to go from these, these. This is school and this is the rules, and this is what I’m. This is who I am there. And then this perhaps is who I am when I’m with you. And it’s almost like, I don’t know, some authenticity of who they are.
Simon: And that’s why we try and do, when we do our programmes, we try to do it first thing in the morning before they go. When they’re. So, they’ve not gone through their routine, their school day. Then it’s like right here. But what we also found is we try. We have to. We’ve had to adapt our programmes for the end of the sessions to kind of regulate them before they go back into school. So, to calm them down. We have to calm them down because. Not that they’re hyper in our sessions, but they’re doing things that they really, really like. And it’s like creative stuff and, you know, the freedom of speech. And how they feel about certain things that they can’t really talk about in school to a teacher because they might probably gonna to be told off.
Maddi: It’s interesting. We talked last, so last week we had, Charlotte Lewis-Gordon on, who came to talk a bit about school attendance. And we’re speaking specifically about, children who are finding it hard to attend school because of anxiety. It’s interesting because we talked a lot about, that morning time, didn’t we? You know, the transition into school and how, actually that, for a child who’s quite anxious is probably the hardest bit, is like getting in, in the morning. So, do you think that what you do has an impact, being first thing in the morning? Because it kind of gives that almost soft start, different kind of space for them to transition into the school environment?
Simon: I think. I think so. And what we’ve been kind of like, we’ve had our shackles on with, when we can’t do, we always wanted to do, which is at the start of the day, specifically with our motivational morning programmes. It’s kind of like, right, let’s motivate you ready for the start of the week on a Monday. We talk about the first 15 minutes is, how was your weekend? What’s gone on? Some positives, what else? Let’s talk about the negatives as well. What’s gone on from your house to the school? So, to get it off their chest so they’re not. Because with some of the kids we work with, it’s like they have all this stuff going on. It couldn’t start the day. When they get in school, they can’t talk about it, so they’ve got all of those things going on in their head, but they’re sat in a confined space in a classroom. Listen, learn, write. Listen, learn, write. And, yeah, you can’t. They can’t function correctly. So, we try to get out of them in the morning.
Maddi: So that makes me feel really sad. Yeah, like, it does make me feel really sad to think that, you know, children don’t have that. Or feel like they have that opportunity to, to express themselves into. And I think, you know, as you. As, you know by now, I talk about her a lot, but, you know, I have a daughter who’s 13 and it’s, she’s, you know, has a happy life. I think she has a happy life, but she still finds it really, really hard to go into school and, and I do spend time wondering why, you know, like, what is it? And I think. I think there’s something about that isn’t it about just not, not quite being able to be yourself and be who you are and tell your story to people and having to conform? And the pressure of that is real and it really is.
Simon: I think what if you think about it across. In schools, everyone learns the same subjects, everyone is judged at the same level. And or not the same level. Just if you don’t get this grade, etc, you’re. That’s where you start in life. That’s. And not everyone is the same. So how can everyone, all of it, all of those subjects, be correct for every, every single individual? It doesn’t make, it doesn’t make sense. And part of the problem, why young people get the frustrated in school is what I feel is not teachers not having time. Teachers don’t have time because teachers are under a lot of pressure to, you know, Ofsted are coming in. Right. We’re going to make sure that my class has got all their marks done. All the, all of that is, et cetera, is in place. And a lot of the time when things escalate in the classroom or they escalate around the school, they wouldn’t escalate if the teacher had five minutes to go, are you all right? What’s wrong? Because. But what teachers do is I’m not going to let this one child disrupt these 29 students who need to learn as well. So, I’m just going to pass that on. Then they get passed on, then they get passed on again, then they get put in a room. Think about what you’ve done. Well, it’s not really helping because they’ve not got anyone else, anyone to talk to. So, it’s time. And what I’m finding in school, going into certain schools, they’ve not got enough support staff in there because budgets or budget cuts. And then, I mean there’s the whole thing around certain schools that have a lot of high pupil premium.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Simon: But there’s a lack of support for the children. So, where’s that money going? All of those things. There’s so many, there’s so many issues.
Maddi: I guess it’s high need and not enough, isn’t it, in a lot of cases.
Orlaith: So, you, in your programmes, you’ve got a set programme, you’ve got kids, you’ve got time, you’ve got space. So, can I ask you maybe a hard question? But if you’re giving advice to a class teacher or a parent who’s trying to take some of what you’re saying and think, how can I do this in my day to day with all those constraints? Do you have any advice or tips for, you’re faced with a young person, and you can see they need to find their thing, you know, they need to find their creative outlet, or they need to find their physical activity. Where do they start? How do they start the conversation? How do they start trying to find that thing with them?
Simon: I feel. I mean, I think it’s different for a parent and their teacher. I think there’s different angles you can go into. I mean, I’m no expert on this, but to find their thing, I think it’s a case of teachers just have a conversation, have a break down that barrier of, I’m your teacher, you’re my pupil. It’s about us having a conversation and just be like, just talk, just talk, have a conversation and just, you know, what, what do you do outside school? Or, you know, what your hobbies are? Why, why haven’t got any hobbies? Or, you know, oh, you’re really good at that. Or something so small that they’re really good, or they’re good at that. They don’t realise, champion it, champion it, so then it gives them confidence. They go, oh, well, I’m good at that. Maybe I’m good at that. And build that. It’s about their confidence. You got to build that up. And then with. I mean, being a parent. I mean, I’m only a few years being a parent, but I know anything that he does, I’m like, go on, son. Like, I’m, like, go on. Like, yeah, you’re wicked. You’re amazing. Like, you’re the best. Confidence. Confident. Confidence. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. You’ve got to bring it. You got to bring out. I think a lot of things to do with finding their niche is based around confidence. If you lack that, even as an adult. Even as. Even as an adult, like, if you’ve got something. I think it’s hard for adults now because you get to a certain age, then you’re like, I like that, but I can’t be bothered. I’m not gonna do that because I won’t be able to do it.
Maddi: Definitely. Yeah. Like, I’m not fit enough to do that anymore. Or yeah.
Simon: You surprise yourself because you, when you throw yourself out the comfort zone.
Orlaith: Yes.
Simon: You’ve got to, but kids can’t do that. They need the adult to guide them and push them in that way.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Simon: And teachers don’t have the time and parents kind of feel like, I don’t know.
Maddi: Well, I guess the thing is, as well, there’s, you know, for real, there’s a lot of kids out there with. They don’t have parents who can do that for them. Do you know a lot of parents are struggling with their own mental health.
Simon: Yeah.
Maddi: Or, you know, they might live in a family where there’s a lot of children, for example, and they just don’t get that individual time with a person to build them up, to give them the confidence that they need and to, you know, raise their esteem in that kind of way. And that’s where teachers come in, I think, isn’t it? You know, they’re the people that are seeing children every day. And when I’m listening to you, I’m thinking to myself, again, it’s about. It’s about connection, isn’t it? It’s about if you’re an adult and you’re working with children in a teacher role. I think, you know, maybe back in the 80s or 90s, perhaps, when we were at school, that teacher role looked very different. I think now you are, you are in more of a social care type role as a teacher. And it is important to get to know children, their experiences, their narratives, because if you can be that person to somebody that could literally change their life. It’s like you say, if you think back to your own experience at school, I bet you could name a teacher. Yeah, you both nodded, you both nodded. who changed things for you because they told you, you were good at something and that makes a difference. I was actually like, I don’t. I’m not very good at art. Right. At all. My art teacher, for whatever reason, I had a really good relationship with him, and he told me I was really good, and I got loads better at it as a result. I ended up passing my GCSE. And if you’d have asked me in year six or seven, would I have done that? No, because I was rubbish at drawing. Because somebody believed in me.
Simon: Yeah.
Maddi: I got better at it, which was really is amazing.
Orlaith: And it gives you confidence not just for the thing you’re talking about. So, let’s say you tell the child they’re good at football and then maybe they try football. But it gives them resilience to try. The, the confidence to try.
Simon: Yeah.
Orlaith: And they’re more likely then to try something else, aren’t they?
Simon: Yeah.
Orlaith: And it makes me think what you’re saying that you start with where the kids are interested. So, they might start talking about drill or rap, and then you might, once you’re there and they’re confident, you might say, well, let’s have a listen to this classical. And you. So, once you’re in and you have the relationship and you’ve built the confidence, they feel brave enough to try something new or to think, oh, I’d never heard of that before. But, yeah, let’s have a, let’s have a go.
Simon: Yeah. I mean, something that’s quite funny. Which cropped up. Not. But I think it was last year, we’re in school, and we’d never come across it before. You know, we always say about, oh, who likes, who listens to music? And the whole cohort said, I don’t. Said they don’t listen to music. And I went, are you sure about that? I went, how many of you game? And then they were like, hands up. And I went, do you listen to it on mute? And they were like, no. And I’m like, so what can you hear in the background? This song. And then we’ll play a song from, like, say.
Maddi: Fortnite.
Simon: Fortnite. And you’ll play a track off there. And they’re like, oh, yeah, you listen to music.
Maddi: And then they know the dance as well.
Simon: Yeah. So, then you connect with them. Find something common with them that. That they, you know, I mean, then you can. It’s kind of like. I don’t want to say cloak and dagger, but you’re getting somewhere without them knowing.
Maddi: Yes.
Simon: And just getting them on board.
Orlaith: Yeah. And we talked a bit about that in previous episodes, didn’t we? About trying to connect and engage with young people, but not necessarily saying, sit down, look at me, face me, tell me what’s going on. But do a shared activity that you love, and it’s a way into the conversation. Yeah.
Simon: Yeah
Orlaith: Sort of by stealth.
Maddi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, stuff like songwriting as well, it’s almost as if there’s a. There’s a deeper level to that then, isn’t there as well? Because I don’t know if I’ve ever told you this. My undergraduate degree is in art therapy. Did you know that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that’s very much about. It’s, it’s art as therapy, but it’s also about narrative, so it’s how you use a therapeutic discipline to tell your story. And of course, there’s a lot of people that can’t, for lots of different reasons, talk about their story, but they can do that through different creative mediums, through dance, through music, through songwriting, through art, through whatever it is. And it’s very much about. So, it’s about the process of art making, but it’s also about how, how you process exactly what you were saying earlier. I guess how you process your life experiences through an art form. And I’m really interested in the idea of physical health as well. So, I want to just cover a little bit about physical and mental health and like what’s the, what the connection is.
Simon: Yeah.
Maddi: For young people, but then also just for in general because.
Orlaith: Yeah, I’m interested how. What you said about when kids are listening to music. The movement. Yeah, there’s something about the movement as well. So yes, the music and the sound, but the movement and the physical. Why do you think that helps kids’ mental health?
Simon: Okay, so if you think back, I did this as a kid, so I, this. Every household has different issues and there’s, there’s, I think back to my childhood and then I also think about, I used to listen, I used to watch a lot of stand-up comedy and I used to love watching Eddie Murphy and his stand up and Richard Pryor and they talk, spoke about being a kid and you’d be told off by your parents and then you go to your safe space which is your bedroom and you let it all out. And it’s not just. You mean, you say, I used to say some horrendous things about my parents into my pillow or shout it.
Maddi: You know what? This is really, like, my daughter does this and I can hear her in a room and she does say some horrible things. But I actually. Yeah, I did that as well. I did. But that’s actually really normal, isn’t it?
Simon: Do you remember the physical side of it? We just stood there going, well, you’ve stood there going, oh, you annoy me, or I hate you, but there was the physical.
Maddi: You were trying to hit something wouldn’t you, a teddy bear?
Simon: I used to throw myself like temper tantrums. Temper tantrums. Kids can’t verbalise that, but they can do it physically. That’s an expression of their emotion. We push that to go. We don’t want. You don’t. We don’t want kids to have a temper tantrum in the session.
Maddi: Yeah, but we don’t want to see that, do we?
Orlaith: That’s what it is.
Simon: Kids have a temper tantrum. They feel better because they let it all out. It’s the same thing. Physical expression. It’s physical, physical dance. Like I go into an extreme limit of I was a professional dancer. So, if, if I was doing a, say, when I was doing a show, I’d obviously, obviously got life going on outside of stress. It could be relationship problems. Could be financial problems. But when you went and performed you forgot everything. That was like, that was my safe space. That was like. I would go 110 percent more. I’d go. I’d be. I want to be physically exhausted, and I’ve been having all that on my mind. And afterwards I’d be like that’s my. That’s my release.
Orlaith: That’s your place.
Maddi: Yeah. I think that’s what I’m. I’m really interested in. I think we. Because we all. I think we kind of like try and push that under the carpet with children because it’s quite scary for us to see children be angry. Do you know? And even in fact not just children, adults too. It’s scary for us to see somebody be physically expressive sometimes. And I think where, as an adult you learn to use the gym, to use a run to use. And that’s, that’s kind of it, because it is a way of offloading, isn’t it? And it’s a way of increasing things like you know, euphoric hormones and stuff that makes us feel good about ourselves, so we naturally want to do it more. But it is also if you feel stressed, you know as an adult you can go and have a run or you can. But I don’t think. I don’t think young people are connected with their own physicality in that way necessarily.
Orlaith: They need an outlet.
Maddi: They need an outlet.
Simon: But then that. Do you not then that think that links to the community then of going all the things that have been cut back?
Maddi: Exactly.
Simon: Like boys club. I go to a boy’s club, or we go to the youth hostel. That was like that was that. That’s where we go, and parents knew where we were, or you know or even, even the local park. It was a small park, but it was done up and it was our place and that’s where we used to. There’s not. Those things are being cut back. So, you’re saying about that. That fulfilment of having that physical side of things of you know, they might not realise they’re laying out system but being parts of certain teams or being parts of a club you’re, you’re doing it without even realising there’s an outlet. Now, there’s not that. So where are kids? They’re inside or they’re doing outside doing anti-social things.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Simon: To fulfil that need.
Orlaith: Yes.
Simon: And it’s wrong in the wrong direction.
Orlaith: Yeah. And it’s interesting what you were saying as well about it’s not just the dancing and the moving. It’s the being challenged. You’re saying, like, you want to go to the edge of your physicality. You want to be, like, really exhausted. And there’s a psychologist called Csikszentmihalyi
talks about this idea of flow and peak experience. So, it’s when the level of challenge from the activity just very, very closely matches your level of skill. And it’s like a really fine balance of. It’s at the top of your skill, and it’s really high challenge. And then there’s this sweet spot when you’re, when you’ve got both of those going on. And if you’re really skilled, but the activity is really easy, it doesn’t work. And if you don’t have the skill and, the activity is too hard, it doesn’t work. And when you get that perfect match, it’s supposed to be this really meaningful psychological state called flow.
Maddi: I don’t think I’ve ever been in flow. Just saying I’m not like, I love a run, you know, but that’s fine.
Orlaith: But it’s not always physical activity, I guess, though. I bet, though, you’ve had a day where you’ve been at. At work, or you’ve been working with kids, and you’ve really, really nailed it, and you’ve know you’ve made a difference.
Maddi: At work maybe, yeah, but not physically.
Orlaith: Exactly. but this. This idea of flow can come in any activity.
Maddi: Oh, okay.
Orlaith: Do you see what I mean?
Simon: Yeah.
Maddi: Yeah. So, it’s not just about, like, being really good at football or something.
Orlaith: Yeah, exactly. And I guess, okay, maybe I have been in flow. Yeah. But people talk about flow as in you lose all track of time and you sometimes don’t think about anything else. And that’s kind of what you were talking about. Yeah.
Simon: Yeah.
Orlaith: And I guess that’s an important point, though, Maddi, isn’t it, that we’re talking about sort of being creative and being physical. But actually, if that’s not your thing, people can get it from other activities, maybe from work, maybe from, you know, being really, really. Some people get it from being really social, that when they’re, like, really connected with people and they’re really chatty from.
Maddi: I think that’s probably me more. Yeah. I guess what it is, though, what you’re saying is that everyone’s good at something, aren’t they? Everyone’s good at something. I think even when you’ve had the most challenging of experiences in life or you, you know, have experienced trauma or whatever it is, I think if you can find your thing, it can really save you.
Simon: But that’s your starting point. That’s your starting point to what your thing is that you start at might, not be where you end up.
Maddi: And that’s a good point.
Simon: It’s a trigger point. It’s your trigger point of going, okay, so it gives me that belief, but it leads me to that. Oh, but I’d like to try that. Oh, actually, you know what? I can link that with that or I’m better at that or I’m gonna go that way. It’s just. You’ve got to have a starting point. You’ve got to have a starting point and find it. Because everyone’s got it. You’vejust got to find it.
Maddi: Yeah. And it’s about. It’s about as adults, as helping children to find that, isn’t it? I think if, if you’re a person working with young people or even as a parent, if you can give a child that one thing that so is so special and important.
Orlaith: Absolutely. So, Si, what is your favourite thing about your job and what’s your biggest success story?
Simon: Favourite thing about my job? The freedom of it. No pun intended. No, I feel, I’ve always liked. It’s kind of, it’s weird actually, because I’ve made so many mistakes throughout my life. Some big, some small. But I always feel like I’ve got quite a bit of wisdom to pass on and I like to help. I like to help especially young people. But I feel like that’s to do with my past of not having. I didn’t have a, my dad wasn’t really in my life growing up and that’s had a massive impact on me. But I never let it affect me to the point of when I’m gonna be down about. I’m just not gonna be like that. And I’ve, now that I’m a dad, it’s that whole thing of, even more so now to pass on certain knowledge or guidance and working with you. I struggled in school from when my dad left my life, and I went. When I was in primary school, I used to love, school. I’d go to school if my, if my arm was hanging off. Like, I loved it. And then when. When all that happened with my mum and my dad, I just changed. I was so badly behaved and like, just. I was just. I was pushing back, pushing back and acting up. And, I got kicked out of a couple of secondary schools, because my behaviour was horrendous. And I felt like I wasn’t. Everyone just thought I was a bad kid. But no one asked me what was going on when I was in school. And now what I get to do is get underneath everything. I’m not necessarily, I’m not necessarily at the forefront in the sessions, delivering the sessions, but when I go to visit and I see at the beginning of this, I was. There’s three visits that I do in the programme the beginning, the middle and in the end, and to see the journey that they go on and ask it. And then I’ll pull them out and ask them questions and I get to talk to, I get to talk to young people and ask them what’s really going on and how do they feel that we’ve helped them? Or how could we better, how could we better help them? Because essentially what our programme started off as aren’t where they’re nowhere near what they’re. What they are now. It’s. It’s been shaped and evolved by the young people we’ve worked with. We’ve had to, we’ve amended our programme going, that doesn’t work. That doesn’t work. It might not work. And then, you know, we’ll do at the end of the year, evaluation and go, let’s, let’s rejig that. And it’s ever evolving because like you say, people, the need is changing always.
Maddi: Yeah, I guess you use. You’ve used your own life experience as though, is what you’re saying to. And you’ve gone, you’ve gone all the way over there to, like, dancing and performing and you’ve come full circle and use your life experiences to really meaningfully help the lives of children based on. On your own experience of not feeling connected and listened to in your own kind of environment growing up. And I think, you know, there’s. There’s a lot of people out there, I think, that go into working with children or young people for different reasons, aren’t there? But I guess again, that’s just really. It’s special because what you’re giving them is something that you didn’t have.
Simon: Yeah. You know, I will say. I will say as well, I feel. Feel like. Because it was a different era being a boy. It was kind of like you don’t really express your emotions because especially around other lads in school, it was like, what I wanted to do. Doesn’t matter about. About crying now. Like, what I wanted to do was just be like, talk to my mate, do you know what’s going on back home? And like. And just let it all out. But I couldn’t because it would seem weak and lads, then, we just jump. We’d just jump on it. And when I, you know, I think that’s why my mum gave me something to do outside that, because I didn’t want to socialise with kids doing football. I still did a bit of football, but as so much going on, it was something different. She just took me away and put me into dance and I mean, I was a live wire.
Maddi: And it was your thing, though. It saved you.
Simon: Yeah.
Maddi: It saved you. And you’ve used that now, your thing to turn your life into something really meaningful.
Simon: Yeah.
Maddi: So that was your mum, I guess, that believed in you and sent you down that kind of path.
Simon: Yeah.
Maddi: Wasn’t it?
Simon: 100%. 100%, yeah. Yeah.
Maddi: Thank you for sharing that.
Orlaith: Do you think it’s different now or do you think young men have similar experiences that they don’t feel like they can talk to their friends?
Simon: I feel like it still happens now, but I feel like it’s kind of more acceptable, like, because there’s been more, it’s been made more aware of the fact that, look, it’s okay not to be okay. It’s okay, for boys to cry. It’s okay. It’s more acceptable now. But there still is that whole stigma around it of going, you know, stiff upper lip and, you know, just man up.
Maddi: Yeah.
Simon: What do you mean, man up?
Maddi: Yeah. The suicide is now the biggest killer of men from age 18 to 30 is the bit like more than heart disease, more than alcoholism, more men kill themselves than any other way of dying. And that’s shocking to me. We are going to cover an episode on men’s mental health, so it’d be great to have you back to join that conversation as well.
Simon: Yeah, I was, I do, yeah. When I started, me making my bad choices and stuff. Like, I did go through a proper dark time when I was in London and that whole.
Maddi: It’s. It’s a rat race, isn’t it, in London, isn’t it?
Simon: Yeah. Yeah. I didn’t have. I didn’t have my, my family down there and I lost contact with a lot of my friends when I left school because I, went. I left Nottingham when I was 16 and went to London to train and then.
Orlaith: Wow.
Simon: I started working straight away. So, it’s kind of like I was.
Maddi: Still, so young.
Simon: So young. 16-year-old had gone away.
Maddi: Yeah.
Simon: I just was involved in wrong circles of socialising and. And you know, it got to a point and I’m like, sat in a flat in, Euston, Eastern London. I had a flat there. And, I had no. I was like, I remember thinking, I’m bored. Like, I hadn’t got anyone to talk to. And I’m going through a lot of things. And I had no one to talk to. I was like, who can I bring up just to have a conversation? Like, they’re not going to get it. They’re not going to get it. And I had some. I never got to that point, but I had some, really. I remember I opened up. When I moved back, I opened up to my mum. I told mum about it and she broke down. She had no idea. And I was like, yeah, but I’m not gonna put that on you. Yeah, that’s the other thing you do. Well, things that you’ve got going on, you don’t want to put that burden on someone else because it’s a lot. And that. That’s. You don’t realise that someone can be in, you know, that your outlet. And, I had some horrendous thoughts and now I’ll be like, how was I even thinking that? But it’s so easy to go down. To go down that road and think, what’s the point? What’s the point?
Orlaith: What helped you? How did you come back from that place?
Simon: I dealt with, I ended up dealing with, I wrote everything down that was going on that was issues for me that I was just shoving under the carpet. And I had dealt with them one by one and slowly, the hardest ones were the first three or four. And then after that it was like, well, I’ve done them. I can do this, I can do that, I can do that. Right, let’s keep going. Let’s keep going. And then my final piece in the puzzle was when I met my fiancé randomly. And I came back, and she was the, he’s the most, she’s the person I’ve ever been able to speak about everything openly without feeling judged. And she was like, my.
Maddi: She’s your home.
Simon: I told her, not what it was. But I told her something was the big thing that needs to be sorted out. And I was in a state. And I remember we were sat down in her house and we were having dinner and it was. I was always thinking, why am I gonna have to tell her this? Why am I gonna tell her this? And I just went, I need to tell you something. And she went, what? And I didn’t say, oh, please don’t feel like. I said. I said, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was thinking, what is she gonna do? And she just got up, she came around and she put her arms around me. She went, don’t worry. She was like, I got you, don’t worry. And I was like. From then I was like, I’m good, I’m good.
Maddi: Yeah. You found your person.
Simon: Yeah.
Maddi: As an adult it’s the most important.
Simon: She’s my person. She annoys the hell out of me but yeah, she’s my person.
Maddi: Yeah. Do you know what it is though? I think as you get older, I was talking to my friends about this and there’s a couple of things I want to say based on what you said. The first thing is the difference between men and women. Because it’s interesting that you kind of self-supported, women talk about stuff a lot more, don’t we? We just do. Like it’s a lot easier for a woman to phone up a girl and say I’m feeling like this, or you know, and I think that’s, that’s got to change. We have to change that in the world just in general because it saves so much. I always say, you know, if women were running in the country, we’d be in a lot better place because the egos aren’t there to know just in terms of, of being able to be open, honest, emotional, all those things that are really positive.
Simon: Yeah.
Maddi: And are seen as weak. And that’s, that’s something that’s got to change. The other thing was I was again; I’ll speak to my friends about this the other day. When you get to a certain age in life, right, you become everything to everyone because you get to an age where your parents are old, so you have to help and support them. And then you’ve got young kids, so you have to help and support them. And you are just doing everything for everyone because you’re also at a point of work where you’re like responsible, you know, depending on what job you have, I guess. But a lot of us are very responsible and I think it’s. Unless you’ve got your person next to you through that, I think it must be so hard. I don’t know what I would do without my home person. He’s just riding alongside me in life and yeah. You know, the ups and downs.
Simon: You know, I think you’re right what you said about you know, women, they will you know, talk, and you know, talk really about friend now this, this, this and offload. And I’m, I feel quite lucky in sense. I’ve got like, you know, can I on one hand, like my, my boys, who I can talk to, but there’s still a fine line of going, I’m gonna talk about this, but not too much.
Maddi: And then. Did you watch the game on Saturday?
Simon: What game?
Maddi: And then watch. That’s what they do, don’t they?
Simon: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Maddi: This. This isn’t it. Oh, yeah. Did you see the game on Saturday? Did you see the goal? Did you see. You know, it. Like, that’s what I find when I listen into men’s conversations. Say what you’re talking. You go to a certain point and. Whereas, like with women, I have. I have girlfriends that I will be on the phone within, like literally within five minutes. Its deep, like really deep, you know, because we’ll go. We’ll go there. Whereas I think with men, you’ll go, this is getting too deep.
Simon: We always still say in our circle, like, oh, you know, I’m always here. Like, I’m here. Listen, if you need to talk, just call me anytime. But then when the conversation happens, we’ll talk and talk. So then it’s like, okay, what we doing next week? What do you want to do?
Maddi: Yeah, there’s a bit of a back off, like.
Simon: Yeah, there is.
Maddi: My husband’s really good, like with his friends. Same, I guess, same way that you probably are. But I notice how much he gets scared when, when the conversation gets a little bit deep.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Simon: Do you know what? There’s other elements to it as well. It’s not just men and male and female or men and women. It’s about this, different cultural backgrounds as well.
Maddi: Definitely.
Simon: But, you know, my, a lot, predominantly my, my friends are Jamaican or African. And it’s like they, that household about how you were brought up. Yeah, it’s different. But we, but all of us are, we’re all dads as well, which is good. So, we talk about our upbringing and how the discipline was so strict, and you know, you can’t. This. This. This is regimented. And you know, we, we openly say, like, that’s not right, how it was. So, there’s that mould trying that’s trying to be broken. But there’s that whole thing of, I know we never used to speak to our dads about how I’m feeling, I’m feeling sad or cry in front of my dad. No chance. You can’t cry in front of your dad. No chance. Because that. Not that they didn’t love you, but it was a case of you don’t want them to think any less of you, of going, oh, my sons weak. That’s the whole thing. So that’s. We’re aware. You’re aware of it. We’re aware of it, especially in my circle of friends.
Orlaith: And you know, when you were talking about, you know, your really personal story, some really dark places, the things that made a difference, like the things that your person said, you know, I’ve got you, or the things that you did, wrote things down. They sound so simple, don’t they? And I think sometimes when you talk to someone who’s in that dark place and you say, or you talk to someone who’s trying to support someone who is, and you say, tell them you’re there for them or you suggest, write things down, they sound like naive or too simple, like, simplicity can’t possibly help, but it’s the relationship behind it, isn’t it? And it’s like your relationship with yourself being like, I have the confidence I can work through these things. Your relationship with her, I’ve got you. You know that. You know, your conversation with your mom, because that relationship was there. And that’s what brings the power to the simple, simple things, isn’t it?
Simon: Yeah.
Maddi: You don’t need someone to fix it for you. That’s what it is, I think.
Simon: Yeah. No one can fix it for you. You’ve got to do that. But you’ve got to, people to walk alongside you. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes you need to. Sometimes as a kid, you have to hold a hand when you fall before you walk. You need that as an adult, you need someone to hold your hand. Not even, maybe not physically, but mentally, they need to hold your hand and walk you down the path that you need to go down.
Maddi: Food for thought.
Orlaith: So, we have our final question that we ask everyone and it’s a perfect segue into it, really. What do you do in your life to remind yourself that you’re not alone?
Simon: I’d say more, I stay connected more to my family, my friends. I say, I used to be quite, don’t know what it is. Not an introvert. What’s not an introvert. But I keep. I used to be very, very. I’m happy in my own company. I’m always happy in my own company. But to do more, just to do more and be present and some even when I’m present with people, I’m not on my phone, I’m not on my phone. I’m having a conversation. I’m listening, I struggle. I just struggle, basically. Oh, yeah, yeah. Not listening to a word you’re saying. But I’m here. but just. Yeah, I’d say to remind that I’m not alone is that there are people that I can rely on. And, the world is a better place with people in your life rather than not in it.
Maddi: What a wonderful way to end.
Orlaith: Yeah. Thank you so much.
Maddi: Thank you so much.
Simon: That’s alright.
Orlaith: We discussed some heavy subjects today, so remember that you can find advice and links to support services on nottalone.org.uk. You are not alone.
Music: Whatever you’re going through, I hope you know you are not alone…
