The NottAlone Podcast
Real talk about mental health with Dr Orlaith Green and Dr Maddi Popoola
Series one, episode six: Supporting infant mental health and resilience in young families.
Episode description
In this episode, Maddi and Orlaith are joined by infant mental health expert Elayne Walker to explore what does resilience mean? How do babies experience mental health? And what can parents and carers do to lay the foundations for positive mental health in their baby’s early years?
We delve into the development of how babies brains and what that means for their mental health and wellbeing. The episode also discusses pregnancy and post-partum mental health, highlighting the impact on birthing parents and those supporting them. Elayne shares professional expertise and talks openly about her own postnatal mental health to shed light on this important topic.
Transcript of episode
Music: Whatever you’re going through, I hope you know you are not alone…
Maddi: Ey up! Welcome to the NottAlone podcast. I’m Maddi.
Orlaith: And I’m Orlaith.
Maddi: We are the co-founders of NottAlone. We’re both also educational psychologists and we’re both parents. We are so thrilled that you’ve clicked onto this podcast to join us as we delve into all things mental health and wellbeing.
Orlaith: Let’s face it, we all encounter challenges and tough times in our lives. So, we want to talk about these experiences in the hope it helps others and reminds you it’s okay to not be okay. No matter what you’re going through, you are not alone.
Maddi: We will be having real conversations about mental health. Some topics will be challenging and may be upsetting, so please do listen with care.
Orlaith: Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the Nott Alone podcast. And today we’re joined by a wonderful guest to talk about infant mental health and building resilience in the early years.
Maddi: Oh, and you know, we have just been serenaded with a beautiful song. Not only is Elayne Walker my, my boss, my head of service, she’s also a wonderful musician and she’s just walked into the recording studio here and picked up a guitar and, sang us the most beautiful song. Nearly brought me to tears. And I did get a video of you. I’m just gonna let you know. Welcome, Elayne. Thank you.
Elayne: Thank you so much for inviting me. And, it was, it was a genuinely spontaneous moment, but I think when I walked in the room and saw all the equipment and the guitars, I was just like, I’m having some of that.
Orlaith: It was like a kid on Christmas.
Elayne: I know it’s really nice. And. Yeah. But I, I just, I didn’t want it to appear indulgent, but I thought.
Maddi: It really didn’t.
Elayne: It helped me kind of get grounded a bit as well, for this.
Maddi: We were literally just, we were just talking about, about the things that we need to do to empty our bucket, in our last episode. So, fits in very nicely with that. So, thank you so much for joining us and being here. We have asked you to come along because you, are, what I would consider to be an expert in this, in this kind of idea of infant mental health. Something that I’m certainly no expert in. And I think what we want to do today is, is cover a few things. Firstly, tell us just, Elayne, tell us a little bit about, what you do, who you are and what you do.
Elayne: Well, my role at the moment, I’m head of service for Infant Children and Adolescent Mental Health services at Nottingham City Council. So, we have a few services in ICAMs and one of them is the Parent Infant Relationship Team. We have the incredible Mental Health in Schools team, the MHTS. We have CAMHS as well, Child and Adolescent Mental Health and the Neurodevelopmental Pathway Support Team.
Maddi: What do we mean, Elayne, when we say infant mental health? So, what, what is that as a concept? You know, when you think about a baby, does the baby have mental health? Do they not just cry?
Elayne: And, and I think that’s a really good place to start, Maddi, sort of think about. It’s a term that sounds, it’s it kind of sounds contradicting in a way, doesn’t it, that we think of mental health as kind of being something that older children and into adulthood might experience. And thank you for describing me as an expert. That’s very kind. I feel like I’m, it’s just something I’m really passionate about and I guess learning all the time. So, I suppose in terms of infant mental health, we’re really thinking about it’s what babies experience really and the fact that they are interacting with the world around them and the people in it all the time while they’re in the womb and you know, especially from the moment they come into the world. So, what’s happening in their world directly influences the development of their brain like the other, their other physical development. The brain is no different really. And when babies are born, they have, this was always really interesting to me, I think, that their brain doesn’t look like a fully, formed brain with all the curves and the bumps and the lumps on it. It’s actually very smooth. And it’s how all those brain cells and all those connections in the brain develop in the baby through their experiences. And the more experiences they have, the more the brain has to kind of accommodate all of this new information and development. And that’s why we start to kind of get, the brain begins to look the way we’re used to. But I think that just illustrates really how babies’ kind of come into the world ready to receive, you know, our interaction and stimulation from us. And experiences and the quality of those experiences are really where their mental health comes, comes into it.
Maddi: Right. Can I ask, can I ask a question? So, I think this could literally be complete non fact, but I’m sure I’ve heard that birth, in terms of the experiences that we have in life has been found to be the most stressful experience we will ever have in terms of levels of cortisol. And is that, is that true? Like is that something that’s real or just
Elayne: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Orlaith: For the baby, do you mean?
Maddi: I mean obviously for moms as well, you know, it’s not fun, is it? Let’s be honest.
Elayne: Yeah, it’s a really significant experience when you think about it, isn’t it? I guess we hope that for a child that would be the most, you know, the most stressful thing they’d have to, sort of go through. But definitely in terms of what’s happening in the, you know, the mother’s body, directly impacting on the infant and then the whole experience of labour and the delivery itself and how the baby emerges into the world. Yeah, incredibly, incredibly important and significant. I guess I’ve heard stories from, you know, older women that I know who experienced, you know, having their babies when practises were very different really. And our attitudes to having babies and what babies needed was quite, quite different then and how they were often kind of left really to get on with it and often their babies were separated from them quite, quite rapidly, you know, in order for mums to rest and things like that. And I guess practises have changed so much, haven’t they, that we know that kind of skin-to-skin contact. Absolutely. Having that care and you know, physical contact is one of the most important things. It works both ways. It’s soothing for the parent as well as for the baby.
Orlaith: Do you know if we talk about infant mental health, so people might ask how could you possibly know that? You know, how could you possibly know if a baby is anxious or feels sad, you know, before they have language? So, you know, from your work, how would you explain that to people? What can they notice and experience that tells them about the mental health?
Elayne: Yeah, that’s a really good question. I think babies communicate with us all the time and all the emerging research and you know, there’s a huge wealth of information there that is allowing us to have some insight into the baby’s world. But it’s really what we observe. They are non-verbal, they’re able to cry and really the cry in itself, if we think about that as that’s all they have really to alert us. It’s when a baby cries, you know, it is really to, it’s a cry of, you know, alarm. That’s all they, that’s the only way that they can communicate.
Maddi: Definitely sounds like an alarm.
Elayne: Yeah, it can be, yeah. Yes.
Maddi: My kids were definitely alarms.
Elayne: Yeah.
Orlaith: Yeah. But, you know, so I’ve got a two year old, so this is a little bit fresh in my mind.
Elayne: Yeah.
Orlaith: But you hear people talking about different types of cries, don’t you? So, I think, as you get to know your baby, you can tell the different types of cries.
Elayne: That’s right.
Orlaith: So, one method of communication, I guess. They’re able to tell you different things definitely.
Elayne: Definitely. So, the cry itself is obviously really significant because babies can’t manage their own temperature. They, you know, very young babies can’t move themselves around or, you know, sit up or lift their head or any of that really. If they’re hungry or, you know, wet or cold, you know, then their cry is kind of, it sounds really dramatic but it’s actually for them it’s like, it’s a survival thing. The cry is what makes sure that they’re heard and, you know, someone can attend to them. And not just the cry itself, it’s also about how babies appear. They are giving us cues; what we call cues. And the cues are a multitude of things really, things like the colour of the baby, sometimes when they’re looking quite, quite flushed, you know, that will tell us something. If they’re actually looking quite sort of pallid and pale, that tells us something else. I guess we can think about their tone and when we say tone, what we, I’m sure anyone who’s, you know, held babies and you know, has their, has, had their own children will know the difference between when your baby is kind of really soft and settling in and they’ve got like really relaxed muscle tone and then when they go really stiff and there’s that kind of rigidity or stiffness. And I think sometimes as well it will be they have sort of behaviours that they do to when they get overloaded with a lot of stimulation. Or there’s a lot of noise. Or there’s a lot of people around. Or it could just be things like there’s a, they’ve had a lot of activity and because they haven’t learned yet kind of how to sort of filter that and manage that. So, they have behaviours like yawning and sometimes drooling, sometimes, you know, it looks like vomiting, a little bit. Possetting is sometimes, also one of those behaviours that is the baby trying to kind of regulate itself, bring itself down from a lot of stimulation and activity and find that sort of quiet space. Sometimes what we do, I think as mums, and I remember my baby’s turning away from me, which is a very common thing that we observe in infants, when they’ve just had a little bit too much and they just need a little bit of a break. So, they might turn away or turn their head away. But, for a mum like me, and I’m sure I wasn’t, I’m not on my own, it felt like rejection. And that can feel really hard. You think your baby doesn’t like you, or I’m doing something wrong because they’re turning away and actually all they’re doing is just going, just give me, just give me a minute. I just need to just be quiet for a second and then I’ll come back.
Maddi: I was just thinking about when you was talking then was how like, as a mum or dad, how hard is like, it’s like a dance, isn’t it? So, like, you make a move, I make a move, you make and that. Something about being in tune and how hard that is. Because like you say, it’s so for you as an adult and having a baby, you might have gone out to a baby group and then done baby massage or whatever it is, or even, you know, just been in the house and played and used different toys and put them on the mat and you, you wouldn’t even probably begin to imagine that you’re, perhaps it’s overstimulating or they need a break and like you say to you, they’re just turning away and actually getting that dance right is really difficult, isn’t it? Like really hard for both baby and, for parents?
Elayne: Yeah. Yes. And I think that’s a brilliant way of describing it. It’s definitely sometimes described as a dance and sometimes, you know, about, like you said, the word, sort of being in tune or, or, you know, in rhythm with each other. And of course it’s really important to say that every baby is different. So, you know, some babies and your own baby may have, I remember working with a, working with a family once and their baby could sleep through, like the doorbell and things like that and lots of kind of loud, loud noises. It didn’t, it didn’t kind of interrupt their sleep at all. It didn’t distress them. They had a parrot that rang a bell every five minutes.
Orlaith: Everybody’s dream, that is.
Maddi: I hate these people. Who are they?
Elayne: And, and the baby, and while Mum was pregnant, the baby had heard all these, these noises all the time. You know, it’s just the noise of their house and, knew it wasn’t anything to be worried about, concerned about, worried about or react to so baby had adapted ways of like just filtering it out. But for other babies it’s really different having too much light, having you know, noise or not being kind of, they may need a little bit more holding than other babies. Where for some being held can be a bit overstimulating. So, I guess that’s, I think that’s a really important message actually that whilst we talk about sometimes and we do this with children and young people as well, don’t we? We sort of, we know they’re all individuals, but we use a term to sort of describe them all. But babies, absolutely every single one has its own preferences and likes and dislikes and its own character. And it’s working that out. And I think if you’re able to kind of understand some of those cues and observe the baby. And this is some of the work that we do, we do, isn’t it? Some of the work in the Healthy Little Minds team, for example, and lots of other parent, infant teams around the country, help parents and carers to kind of identify their baby’s cues. And once you’ve kind of got into their language, then the parenting part and the caring for them can feel a lot less daunting because you know your baby and you get that attunement or the intuneness, that you were talking about, the dance starts to happen a lot more easily.
Orlaith: What you’re talking about is getting to know your baby. And it’s, it’s interesting because I think a lot of the sessions we’ve done on the podcast, Maddi, have been about mental health needs and talking about mental health, very much attached to language, haven’t they? You know, about the thoughts that you have, the things that you say to yourself if you feel anxiety or whatever. And what you’re talking about is the, the feelings and the sensations that a baby has pre language of feeling safe, feeling good, not feeling good.
Elayne: Yes.
Orlaith: Trying to get their caregiver to come towards them or to leave them alone.
Elayne: Yes, that’s right.
Orlaith: So, it’s amazing to just really think about.
Elayne: Yeah.
Orlaith: How much communication they have about their mental health even before language.
Maddi: I think one of the things that I was thinking about when Elayne was talking as well was about, so, the rhythm and getting to know your baby and as you’ve said, kind of working those little cues out. Do you know when I was, especially my first child, I’d have a day right where I’d be like, yes, I’ve got this like I am the dance. I’m Dancing. I’m in the rhythm.
Elayne: Yeah.
Maddi: And the next day it would all go to complete pot. And then, and then I think that’s what I found really hard as a mom. It was like, I, I’ve got this. I know her. I’ve got in the rhythm. And then like, she’d switch it up somewhere else would be wrong. Do you know? And it was a real. I think it’s such a hard time. Such a hard time trying to get that right. And always worrying if you’re getting it right.
Elayne: Absolutely.
Maddi: If you’re meeting the need, you know?
Elayne: Yeah. And I think. I guess the important thing to say as well, you know, if you go out of step, you know what I mean, you’re dancing and it’s going really well, and then you trip up or it goes a bit out of sync. You know, babies are resilient to that as well. You know, the odd, you know, where we get it wrong. And we all do. I think it’s really important to, kind of really important that you said that Maddi, because that is the real experience of parenting, isn’t it? We have days that, that go well, we have unexpected things that happen. Throw us completely out of our routine. And apart from all the recovering from birth and adapting to a very different life with, with baby. And, and as well as that, we bring with us all our, all our own experiences of being parented and what that was like for us. I think, you know, we bring our own stuff into that relationship as well. I think the key thing is we, it’s okay if it goes a bit wrong. It’s the repair that I guess is the crucial part. Get back in the rhythm. And babies, if we’re really kind of investing in that, in having a tuned and sensitive relationship with our babies, then we’re doing all the right things in the first place. So, they will be much more resilient and able to manage if things go a little bit wrong and life happens. And, you know, we, yeah. We sometimes we’re feeding a bit later than we planned, or. You know what I mean? You’re just about. I remember those moments when you’re just about to go out the door. You’ve got the bag packed. They’re, you know, they’ve had a bath and they’re clean and they look lovely. And you’ve got your baby bag ready and the push chair. And then all of a sudden.
Orlaith: Blegh
Elayne: They’re sick or they do a massive poo. Yeah. Just. And it goes up their back.
Orlaith: They wait just till you’re out the door. They can’t do it half an hour before it’s time, time to go, can they? It has to be just when you’re out the door.
Elayne: I know.
Orlaith: So, I feel like there’s, there’s a lot of pressure at that time when you have a newborn, isn’t there? Health visitors, and in the modern age, there’s social media. You know, your, your social media algorithms will know that you’ve got a newborn. They’ll be showing you all these perfect parents and all of this. So, I wondered, you know, from your work, Elayne, what are your top tips for what you can and what you should do to, to build your child’s mental health for the future from the very early years?
Elayne: Yeah, well. Oh, that’s a, that’s a great question. I think, I would say that actually your instinct is really important, and I think we need to trust ourselves more as parents as well. That it’s, and it’s really important in the work that we do, isn’t it? That we, you don’t know your child better than you do, kind of thing. There’s something about instinct and I think absolutely, kind of if you can try and disengage a little bit from the social media world and the external pressures and expectations. I think very few people put on social media, the, when they’re having a difficult day or things have gone wrong and things, you know, the kitchen doesn’t look great and their baby isn’t, you know, immaculately. In an immaculate outfit, for example. But real life that can really make us, I think, compare ourselves. I think, there will be lots of, you’ll get lots of advice from different people about what they think you should be doing with, with your baby. And, and I think it’s okay to, to you know, put a kind of, put a limit around that, put a bit of a boundary around that because that also can feel really overwhelming. And it’s about, you’re in that process of learning about your baby and your baby, getting to know you as well. You are the most important person in that baby’s life, and you know, your wellbeing and you being cared for and contained and looked after is one of the most important things of all really. It’s really hard to care and give love and give of yourself if you’re feeling like you’re not receiving that.
Maddi: I, I think again, especially with my first, I think when, with my first baby it’s different because by the time you have your second, you’ve done it once. And you kind of, I feel like, you know, to, to you know, I suppose you have more confidence.
Orlaith: You know what to expect.
Maddi: You know what to expect a bit more. Although they are, they’re all very different, aren’t they? Let’s be honest. But I think that that’s such a key message for me is that when you have a baby, especially your first one, you compare yourself to other people. You compare yourself to, you know, when you go along to a group or you’re, you’re with other the mums and you’re, you’re comparing your parenting, you’re comparing what their child is and not doing. You’re comparing all the non-verbal’s and everybody’s talking about what, what their child’s doing, their routine, if they’re sleeping, if they’re not. And there’s so much, because you talked a bit about the expectations you have of yourself as a parent and then the expectations of your baby, of you. And then there’s all these other expectations of society, of the health care system, of, you know, should you, should you let them cry? Should they, you know, should they sleep with you? All these different things and decisions that you kind of. I made every decision as a mum based on survival. Honestly, it was literally like, how do I sleep, how do I get her to sleep and how do we both eat? And that was most days, that was it. And I feel like, by the time I had my second, I was wiser. But the key thing isn’t it, is that she was her and I was me and that that is different to anybody else, any other mother or father and baby. So, it doesn’t matter what anyone else is doing or not doing, because regardless of any of that, you’ve got your unique experience of you two in any given day or moment. And, and that, that is okay.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: And it’s okay to not be the same as anybody else and to have your own unique experience, because it is.
Orlaith: And that’s, it’s interesting, you know, going to like the baby groups and things and everyone’s sitting there saying, my baby does this, my baby does this, you know, and you’re comparing. But actually, what I’m taking from what you’re saying, Elayne, is if you are there saying my baby does this and it’s like this, and they say this and they like this, you’re doing brilliantly because you know them.
Elayne: Absolutely.
Orlaith: And so, the other mum or dad who’s there said, well, my baby does this. They’re doing brilliantly as well because they know that their kid likes this and they have this approach. And it’s actually the parents who are paying attention, connecting, feeding, doing all those basic things, but really closely who are doing a good job. And you don’t need to compare, you just need to know your baby.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: Yeah. It’s powerful.
Maddi: I think you do spend most days feeling like you’re failing though, I have to say. Well, I don’t. I mean that was my experience. I don’t know, some people probably don’t. But my experience of motherhood initially was that I’m crap at this. Like, I’m just rubbish at this. Can I go back to work? Because I’m better at that.
Elayne: That’s really, it’s really, really hard, isn’t it? And when I had my, my first baby, I was in the middle of my health visiting degree. So, I, I’ve got this.
Orlaith: Wow, in the middle of your degree, Elayne?
Elayne: Yeah, I thought, I’ve got this. I know, I know all the, all the child development stuff. I mean I know all about centiles and everything. I’ll be fine.
Maddi: I’ve got my stuff to help you. I’ll be fine. I’ve got my graph.
Elayne: Yes. Blooming heck, and I think the one, the one thing, or there were lots of things, but the one thing mainly that absolutely I had no preparation for and it was just overwhelming, was the emotional impact of having her. I think suddenly, you know, suddenly the world felt like a really scary place. How am I even going to take her from the safety of the hospital? There’s pollution out there, there’s cars, there’s like other people that someone might smoke around her.
Orlaith: I remember that
Maddi: It’s so scary.
Elayne: It is really scary, isn’t it? Whilst it was so joyful, I think I just couldn’t. I couldn’t imagine how I would live normally again, like loving her as much as I did. But also, I think, and I think it’s okay to say also feeling quite frightened of her. Not, not that she was scary.
Orlaith: It’s the weight of the responsibility.
Elayne: But she was suddenly the centre of my world. Everything now, you know, she was at the centre of everything. Every decision I made from then on would be about her being at the centre of, of that. And I think, and I remember very distinctly I brought my bag, you know, you bring your bag home with all your nightie and all your bits and bobs that you took into hospital. And, and I remember feeling like I couldn’t open it for, for, for a few weeks, I kind of left this bag, couldn’t open it because it kind of represented the before me and the, and the now me, you know, and that the person that that bag belonged to didn’t kind of exist anymore. Do you know what I mean? There was just this new version of, of me. And it takes a while to, I, I felt, you know, it takes a while to settle into that. And I think that’s really important as well, don’t, don’t underestimate, you know, what a significant event this is in your life. And like you say it does, it is a, probably a little bit different when you have another baby. I know, you know, I’ve got, for example, loads of photos of, you know, my, my first baby. It was like, oh, she moved. Get a picture.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Elayne: You know what I mean? Oh, look at her. You know, she’s got some new socks on. Get a picture. And then my son, when he was born, it’s like, I’ve got some pictures somewhere.
Maddi: I mean, bless, they, you know, crawled or walked and whatever. Like your first, you do kind of mark the milestones with your second, it’s just like. What I remember being really funny as well is that I couldn’t wait for my daughter to walk, because it was like she was gonna hit that milestone.
Elayne: Yeah.
Maddi: But then when you’ve experienced that once, you’re like, please don’t walk, please slow down. Because you know, the minute that happens, you can’t just take them out. Cause they’re all. Yeah. You know, so it’s, it’s, it is different, isn’t it?
Elayne: But this might sound a bit, a bit of a strange thing to say, but I guess we think, think a lot about sort of how we hold babies. I think this is really what I wanted to say earlier, actually. It’s kind of something really key. So, I guess we have babies sort of held. They’re held in the womb. The security of like that really closeness and warmth and safety. And then there’s a transition, isn’t it? They come into the world and it’s kind of different. And, you know, how do we help them still feel held and feel safe? So, we do that with our arms. We kind of hold them. We keep them close to us all the time, don’t we? And then as they, they go through that, they go through another transition of, you know, so we might not be, you know, we might not just be breast or bottle feeding, but they’re now moving on to sort of, more solid food. And so that’s a transition as well. So, they, they might be moving away from the breast. We might not be having those like holding in our arms, kind of gazing into each other’s eye’s moments. It moves away. We introduce a spoon for example, and then, and then like you were saying, then suddenly it’s like now they can crawl, and they crawl away from us. And, and then before you know it, they’re kind of pulling up on furniture and starting to move around. And whilst, you know, that changes then how we do things but for, you know, for some parents and carers, there’s also a sense of a bit of loss there as well. Like they’re moving away from us, they’re growing up and moving. And how do we do that. How do we still do that holding when actually they don’t want to be, they don’t want to be held back. They want to, they want to walk and crawl and run away from us.
Orlaith: And it’s important, isn’t it, to build mental health for the future?
Elayne: Yes.
Orlaith: So, there’s this process, I don’t know if you want to talk a bit about it, of the letting go and the bringing back, which is that foundation. And actually, I think that’s a really helpful piece of advice to share, isn’t it, that you know, to be brave and to let, to do the letting go.
Elayne: Yes.
Orlaith: Because it actually gives them the courage to go out in the world and explore and pull up onto the table and see what’s up there.
Elayne: Definitely.
Orlaith: And then you bring them back and they build that cycle of independence.
Elayne: Yeah, but we still hold them, we hold them with our gaze, we hold them with our voice and, and it’s interesting, isn’t it, how babies and really young children always kind of look to you. They look for their safe base, the parent carer people in their lives that they just need to check in that you’re there, you’re still in distance.
Maddi: I’ll never forget there’s a video that I watched of a, like a developmental stage of a toddler. Where you know, when you take, I think it’s around two or something when you take them out and they will start to, you’ll get, you know, you get out the car, whatever, you hold the hand until you get into an open space and then they’ll run. But then a typically developing two-year-old will always do the look back, check that you’re there and wait for you to come a certain bit closer and then run again. And then, and then wait for you to, to get a bit closer before they then go again. And is it. That’s what you’re talking about, I guess, isn’t it? That’s that release.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: Are you there? Safe base. Yes. Okay, I’ll go a bit further. Yes. And repeat.
Orlaith: And if you get it right, that letting go and bringing back. They feel braver each time to go a bit further, don’t they?
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: I remember being so nervous about that though. You know, my husband’s quite good at that. Let him go. I’m not very good at that. I know. And I’m like, oh, to go after him. But then you see them building these like, skills of exploration, curiosity, you know, social bravery. To be like, oh, I don’t know what that is over there. I’ll go and have a look. And these are all these foundations of resilience, aren’t they, for future challenges?
Elayne: Absolutely yeah. It’s all those experiences and you know, and I guess experiences being repeated, positive experiences that are repeated and consistent, we know, are really, really important. I think going back to something you said earlier, Orlaith, about what would, about, what piece of advice. I’ve been thinking about that because I thought, oh, there’s so much, isn’t there? But I think when it feels like a chore, when it feels like, oh, you know, I’m just continually sort of feeding, changing nappies, washing, dressing them, you know, getting them. Every time you do that, that’s an interaction that is changing something in your baby’s brain. The eye contact, the touch, the interaction with you, your voice. We talked about the brain at the beginning, didn’t we? And how it all starts to fold, fold in and get all those lumps and curves on it that as, as it assimilates and gathers lots more information and experiences. Every time you’re doing a nappy change, as, as, as mundane as that might feel, something magical is happening in your baby’s brain. That it’s, it’s, it knows that this, you know, if I’m uncomfortable, you know, you will come, and you’ll help me feel okay again. You’re gonna talk to me, you touch me, you look at me in the eye, you know, this, it’s all like this, they are sort of magic moments. And I think that can sometimes help to, to take away the routineness or, you know, feeling like it’s, it’s constantly demanding and, and, and, and let’s be honest, you know, it, it is hard. You’re often, I really often haven’t had a lot of sleep and, things that, things are tough aren’t they?
Orlaith: But I really love that way of explaining it. That’s really, I don’t know. That’s really sort of got me right there. Because I think that is when you’re in the trenches as a parent and you think, what, what is this all about? Those are the things that are really hard, aren’t they? That.
Maddi: Really hard. Very easy to forget. Yeah, very easy to forget.
Orlaith: You’re talking about the meaning that is there. Because one of the things we wanted to ask you about really is the impact on your mental health as a parent in raising an infant.
Elayne: Yes.
Orlaith: And actually, you know, we know from our understanding of mental health, don’t we, that when you have a sense of hopelessness, a lack of meaningful work, a lack of daily meaningful tasks, those are some key ingredients to having mental health difficulties, aren’t they? But I love the way you’ve talked about that when you, when you feel like you’re in a, in a rut, there, there’s actual meaning and magic in that.
Orlaith: You’re building up that connection. I really like the way you’ve explained it, Elayne. Thanks.
Maddi: We wanted to, we did also want to touch on postnatal depression a little bit, because I, I really do believe that it’s probably the hardest thing I’ve ever done is having a baby. And just by nature, your hormones are, we know this, you know, they’re fluctuating, they’re up and down, and it’s challenging for every woman as a result. Challenging for every man, I think, too, but in different ways. But some people do experience what we would call a more kind of clinical presentation of postnatal depression. And I wanted to bring that in the room today because I want to make sure that if anyone is listening to this and they’ve just had a baby, or if you’re, you know, a father of, of a newborn baby and you’re worried about your partner. Elayne, what are the kind of signs to kind of look out for, for a woman who is experiencing what we call quite kind of serious, clinical, postnatal depression that would require potentially, you know, a medical intervention? So, what, what would that look like?
Elayne: Well, I guess in the first few days and maybe the first couple of weeks or so, it’s, it’s really quite understandable if you’re gonna, feel quite emotional. And I think probably it’s, it. I know certainly I had days of sometimes weeping uncontrollable, uncontrollably, and just you know, just full of emotion. And then other times, you know, like a serene sort of joy that I was just, you know, I was hunkered down, you know, with my baby and, you know, we didn’t have to face the outside world and that felt safe. And, you know, the emotions are, I think it can be a real roller coaster. Please don’t be too alarmed if, you know, it feels emotionally like, you know, everything can feel a bit overwhelming and you, it’s fluctuating a lot. Certainly. Absolutely. Talk to your friends and your support and your partner and know that you won’t be alone. I think that’s a really, really strong message. I think the three of us, when we’ve been sat here and when we were talking earlier, when I just arrived, you know, I think that’s something we, we’ve shared together, you know, that this isn’t an isolated experience. But then it’s really more if, things don’t resolve. And particularly, you know, if your mood, the way you’re feeling in yourself, is impacting on you to such an extent that it’s affecting your ability to care for your baby and yourself really. And it’s not unusual to have lots of strange thoughts, please know that that’s sometimes where our mind takes us. I think when, where we’re experiencing, an adjustment in our life that is, quite massive. And we can’t underestimate how big that is really. And sometimes we catastrophize, sometimes we worry about things that haven’t happened yet. We worry about all the things that could impact on our baby. Like we were saying earlier about, you know, pollution, germs, you know, other people, you know, them, things out of our control. And whilst that, don’t be alarmed if you’re having those thoughts. I think that’s part of how we’re testing it out for ourselves. What, what does the world look like now? Now I’m a, now I’m a mum or a dad, you know, and I’m adjusting to that. But I think it’s when it begins to really impact and you feel that there’s things you can’t do that you were maybe doing before. Or you feeling like you’re doing a lot of, for example, checking for things or worrying about, worrying about safety that’s affecting you. These are just examples. Obviously, it looks different for everyone, but something that might stop you going out or something that you might not feel safe in the house or. And it’s also not unusual to have feelings about not liking your baby. It’s not easy to say that, is it? But that is the reality.
Maddi: I’m glad you brought that up.
Elayne: Not liking your baby, sometimes feeling like your baby doesn’t like you, is quite common. If you have feelings like, you know, you might hurt your baby or you, you know, you feel it, have feelings of wanting to harm. Most parents that I speak to talk about those feelings but feel very troubled by the fact that they’ve had that thought, you know, like, why I love her. Why would I even think this? And it’s so brave to say it and put it out there. I think we demystify a lot of the fear around mental health and our actions by kind of owning it and exploring what that actually might mean. But of course, it’s really important. If you’re caring for your partner, they’re experiencing thoughts like this, or you are generally, see a change in them. I would say, you know, that particularly. Maybe it’s difficult, isn’t it? Because we don’t always look after ourselves in the way we did before. You just haven’t got time. But I think if you start to see a really significant change. And especially it doesn’t happen very often, but there can be a type of mental illness that can come on after having childbirth that does require a more kind of intensive approach and that really affects. Can be revealed really by a lot of really unusual thoughts and perhaps thoughts that might not seem rooted in reality. And, you know, the. The kind of things where, you know, that it might seem at odds with actually what’s happening.
Maddi: I think, it’s one of the things, and this is, this is linked to kind of more to do with trauma and grief, I guess. But one of the things that we kind of learned, you know, as psychologists, is that when somebody is kind of stuck in that position of, obsession, intrusive thoughts and those kinds of things, but they’re kind of there all the time in that one position. Or they’re in the position of disassociation maybe all the time. And they’re kind of disconnected. Not, not quite in touch with. So, I think there’s, all of those things are normal, if there is some kind of oscillation.
Orlaith: Or like you’re coming in and out.
Maddi: Of it, coming in and out of those different things. Because. Yeah, and a bit of that and a bit of that and a bit of that sometimes I feel like that sometimes. And that feels quite normal. I think what. What, What I’m hearing from you is that if you’re kind of stuck in one of those positions of. Of you Know really kind of dark thoughts or, or feeling extremely abnormal a lot, you know, all the time, I think. And then, and then it’s about getting help, isn’t it?
Orlaith: And what should you do or what should you do to help your partner?
Elayne: I mean it’s not unusual sometimes in pregnancy, particularly if you’ve had a lot of difficulties leading up to that and you know, everybody’s got their own story, you know, so sometimes pregnancy is like, I don’t know, it magnifies some of those things. But, after you’ve given birth then usually there’ll be some kind of, within your hospital you’d have some conversation with your midwife before you, before you’re discharged anyway, just to check in on how you’re doing. But absolutely, your health visitor. Absolutely, your GP or practise nurse. There are lots of helplines and self-help numbers that you can contact.
Maddi: You can find them on Nott Alone.
Elayne: Absolutely, absolutely. It’s a brilliant resource for that.
Maddi: I was just, I was just going on there on my phone to search. and yeah, there’s a section around pregnancy and postnatal mental health on nottalone.org.uk.
Elayne: That would be brilliant. Yes, absolutely. To sort of link to that. And I wondered if, do you mind if I kind of just share something about
Orlaith: We’d love you too?
Elayne: Yeah. Because I guess this. It’ll sound quite heavy but really what I want to emphasise is I am I guess a living testament that, you know, you get, you can get through it with the right kind of support. So, when I had my daughter, she was born on the 9th of September 2001. So, the event in New York, the Twin Towers kind of happened. Yes, while I was recovering from a c-section. So, I was on the maternity ward, and I had this very, very surreal moment. It was the first time I’d left, her to go and have a shower. So, she was like two days old and I’d, that was quite a brave step. I came back to the ward and there was just silence. It was so eerie because something had changed, which I found very unnerving because it was the first time I’d left her, kind of thing. And I was hold on, where is everybody? What’s happened? And everyone was watching on a television in the in my bay. And I thought, why is everyone watching a disaster movie on the tv? What’s going on? And then it dawned on me that it was actually a real event. So, I guess thoughts of how can I bring this most precious, loved being into the world and is the world safe? Suddenly, there was absolute confirmation, you know, this isn’t. Oh, no, this is really not safe. This is about as unsafe as it could be. And it kind of developed into a bit of an obsession for me. So, I was very stuck in kind of what’s going to happen now? Is there going to be another war? I reached out to, I did talk to my health team, my gp, But I, I also reached out to some of my friends who, have faith. I’m not particularly religious, but I think in my search to try and find meaning for it all, talking to them a lot about it as well. I remember feeling so, peculiar and like I wasn’t really living in the world. Kind of feeling quite like I was observing everything, but I was kind of sort of removed from it. And I had lots of peculiar thoughts about, I’m cautious about saying this, but I guess. But it’s important to say. And I thought I’d been poisoned as part of the, like some kind of chemical warfare thing. So that became like a real feature, for me. But I had some insight, and I think that’s important. Whilst in the midst of all this kind of just horror and fear and of course everyone affected. We all saw those awful pictures of the towers and I think the people that I saw falling from the building, I suddenly realised that they were someone’s child. And it was that suddenly this understanding as a mother, what, that of the.
Maddi: Loss of the loss.
Elayne: Which I’d not been immune to before, but I don’t think I’d ever connected with it in such a profound way. So, they were all somebody’s children to me. And the thought of losing my own child so, unbearable. But I had, I had treatment. I didn’t need to go into hospital. I had, I had some medication, and I had a counsellor, and we worked through it together and told a lot of my friends and was actually, you know, in, you know, quite quickly really kind of able to laugh about some parts of it. Nothing about that event is funny, obviously, but I think, you know, it was how I’d managed to kind of, you know, the particularly being poisoned bit, because I rang the labour ward and telling them what had happened to me, you know, that kind of thing. And I think I was just needing to hear another voice, kind of just, you know, yeah, just be with me in that moment. But I knew that was like, okay, I’ve got to. I’ve got to do something now. And, and I think it was partly some of those experiences, I was already interested in, babies and parent, infant relationships anyway, but through my own experiences and, and then again with my second baby, really cemented the passion for this, part of the work.
Maddi: Thank you. It’s been such an interesting conversation.
Elayne: Thank you for having me. Amazing. I could continue for hours, couldn’t you?
Maddi: One of the things that we ask every guest, at the end of each chat is what do you do to make you feel less alone?
Elayne: Oh, that’s a lovely question. Well, I think, am I allowed to say two things?
Orlaith: Go on then. We’ll let you.
Maddi: You’re the only person we’ve let.
Elayne: Oh really.
Maddi: No, I’m joking. I’m joking.
Orlaith: We let you sing as well at the start, so.
Elayne: Yeah, you did. So, I think, oh, my children, you know, are so important to me. But I try not to kind of, you know, I try not to sort of interfere with their lives too much. But I think animals are, you know, my dog Walter, and I think we have a kind of bond where we can just be still together. We’re just quiet together and it’s like a knowing of each other. We’re quite similar in a way. So, I never feel alone with him. And I guess playing music, although sometimes I am on my own when I play music. But it grounds me. It’s kind of like a physical thing and I think that changes my experience if I’m. Maybe it’s like a self-soothing thing that if I’m feeling alone, I feel less. Feel like you’re not feeling less scary. Yeah, because I’m coming back to myself.
Maddi: Wow, you’ve been a wonderful guest. Thank you very much.
Orlaith: Thank you so much.
Maddi: Yeah, thank you.
Elayne: Thank you, I’ve loved it.
Orlaith: We discussed some heavy subjects today, so remember that you can find advice and links to support services on nottalone.org.uk. You are not alone.
Music: Whatever you’re going through, I hope you know you are not alone…
