The NottAlone Podcast
Real talk about mental health with Dr Órlaith Green and Dr Maddi Popoola
Series three episode four: The psychology of mattering – helping young people feel valued and understood
Episode description
Series three episode four: The psychology of mattering – helping young people feel valued and understood
Series three of The NottAlone Podcast is a special four-episode podcast series which explores some challenging topics, hearing young people’s first-hand experiences of grief, loss, eating disorder recovery and overcoming anxiety and panic attacks.
In this episode, Dr Maddi and Dr Orlaith discuss the young guests they have had on the podcast this series, their inspirational stories and what they took away from each young person.
They also do a deep dive on young people’s mental health, using their insights as educational psychologists to help parents, carers, or professionals working with young people to understand more about the way young people frame their thoughts, and some of the best ways to help them.
Key themes explored in this episode include: intrusive thoughts and negative thinking patterns, catastrophising, building confidence and self-value with young people, and key takeaways from the young guests this season; Ella, Grace and Shova.
Transcript of episode
Music: Whatever you’re going through…I hope you know you are not alone…
Maddi: Ey up. And welcome to the NottAlone podcast, a place where we talk all things mental health. I’m Maddi.
Orlaith: And I’m Orlaith. We’re educational psychologists and we’re here to open up the conversation and offer a helping hand through different and sometimes challenging subjects around mental health.
Maddi: We chat to guests who offer their own perspectives on personal challenges, as well as professionals who share their advice. Sometimes these conversations can be tough, so please take care while listening and take a break if you need to.
Orlaith: Remember, if you’re impacted by any of the topics we cover, you can visit nottalone.org.uk to find advice and support. So let’s get started.
Maddi: Welcome back, everybody. We are here in the studio again in Mansfield for The NottAlone Podcast, season three. This is the final episode. It’s been a short season, hasn’t it, this one?
Orlaith: It has. We’ve spoke to three really amazing young people this season and we want to take a bit of time today, Maddi, to talk as two psychologists about our observations about themes and some of the things we learned from our three fantastic guests this term.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: This term [laughs] I’m still a teacher.
Maddi: This term – Orlaith’s still at school [laughs]. Teacher, teacher. It never leaves you, does it? Yeah, yeah. So I think it’s been amazing. It’s been amazing having young people on and I think, you know, we spend a lot of time as psychologists, especially kind of theorising and thinking about what might be going on. But I’ve actually learned a lot from all three young people that have been on.
Orlaith: Me too.
Maddi: I’ve thought about things in different ways and I think that’s why we wanted to come together today. I really want this episode to just really be like, an open conversation about some of the ideas that I’ve thought of as a result of those conversations. So one of the patterns that I think we’ve, especially from Shova’s episode and from Grace’s episode, was around the idea of, intrusive thoughts and different types of thinking.
Orlaith: Yeah. Should we say a bit about what that is? So, as psychologists, something that we would use all the time. What do we mean by that?
Maddi: Yes, what do we mean by that? Let’s break it down a bit. So I guess what we mean is negative thought patterns or what we might call cognitive distortions. So when a thought comes into your mind, and it might be for some, for whatever reason, depending on, you know, your environment and, and different things that are going on in your life, but those thoughts are either exaggerated or, irrational.
Orlaith: And everyone, everyone experiences this. So like a good example is you get in the car, you drive off and you think, oh God, have I left the door open? Did I lock the door? Yeah, everyone has that every now and then, most people, but this thought just comes into your mind. You think, oh, I’ve left the door open. Sometimes you might have to go back and check. Most people crack on with it. But for some people, if they’re struggling with a mental health difficulty, they have those type of thoughts all the time, really obsessively, and it starts to really take up a lot of space in their head, doesn’t it?
Maddi: Yeah. And I guess that’s, that’s really what we know about anxiety, depression, low mood, low self esteem. Is that one of the key contributors to those things are these irrational thoughts about self. And that’s, that’s why, I guess we want to talk about this today, because it’s something that we know, we know this as psychologists and we know, we know that negative thoughts impact on those, they result in behavioural patterns that have massive impact on life. But I don’t know if I’ve for a long time really thought about this in depth. So I kind of wanted to visit some of those different types of thought processes and have a chat with you about it, I guess, my friend.
Orlaith: That’ll be nice. And I was thinking it’d be really good. What I would like us to be able to do is to help a parent or a carer or a teacher to use some of this without training as psychologists to maybe help a young person like Grace, like Shova, who is having these thoughts and it’s affecting their everyday and actually try and help them.
Maddi: Yeah, it’s about noticing, isn’t it? Yeah, I think it’s noticing when. When these thoughts might be impacting on somebody.
Orlaith: Exactly.
Maddi: I actually listened to someone else’s podcast on my-
Orlaith: How dare you.
Maddi: Yeah, I know. Yesterday, it was talking about the psychology of mattering.
Orlaith: Okay.
Maddi: And underneath that was two ideas around value. So how much do I add value and how much do I feel valued?
Orlaith: Okay.
Maddi: Right. So that kind of links to this, I think as well, because when you think about the idea of I matter, that then leads to what we call a sense of belonging. So if you feel like you matter, and through. And what that means, like I’ve just said, is about do I add value and do I feel valued? And I think if you’ve got negative cognitions around two of, around both of those things, then that has a real impact on you. Doesn’t it?
Orlaith: I Think if you asked an adult who knows and cares for a young person who’s struggling what their intrusive, negative thoughts are, they would probably be able to tell you because they’re like a catchphrase that they probably rehearse in their head and outside. So you’d say, you know, what is this young person’s catchphrase negative thought? And they’d say things like, I’m, no good at this, I’m rubbish at everything. You know, everybody hates me, I’ve got no friends. They’re little catchphrases that they get so much practise in your head that they get strength and then you start to believe them. And some of the more hopeful and more positive things, like, oh, you are good at sports, even though you’re not good at maths, they sound sort of naive and weak. And sometimes I think our natural instinct would be to say some of these things to young people, isn’t it, you know, oh, you don’t need to worry about those friends because you have these other friends. So today, hopefully, we can talk about how you can actually help young people to challenge those intrusive thoughts themselves. Because I think sometimes you try as an adult, you will try and help with alternative thoughts, but you’ll get the reaction you don’t understand, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Because these intrusive thoughts have these, techniques that we’re going to go through some of them, aren’t we, to give, to give strength to the belief. So, like you say, to make you feel like this is true, because I don’t matter or I don’t add value, so I’m rubbish at everything.
Maddi: And then what happens is, once you’ve kind of developed that that construct or that thought is, is you also start looking for it. So that works as well in the same way as what we call, like, machine learning on online. So once you have an opinion or a value that’s underpinning something that you’re looking at a lot. So, you know, like when you, you know, you’re scrolling and you might like certain things, it will give you more of those things.
Orlaith: Exactly.
Maddi: So the more you think that intrusive thought, the more you’re going to be looking for it to be confirmed. So it’s confirmation bias as well, isn’t it, that you’re kind of looking for when you’ve got those thoughts?
Orlaith: Exactly.
Maddi: so let’s start with. I’ve got a list here.
Orlaith: You’ve got a list. What would we call these, Maddi?
Maddi: I would say negative thought patterns.
Orlaith: Yeah, I guess. And some, sometimes I’ve heard them called, cognitive traps.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: So there’s distortions or distortions and cognitive meaning, like anything to do with thinking. They’re traps that you fall into that just like you said, they confirm this negative intrusive thought.
Maddi: Yeah, it’s really. Do you know what as well? Because I’ve, I’ve got a few, obviously. We all have. And they really hit you when you’re vulnerable, don’t they as well?
Orlaith: Do you know when your guards down, when you’re tired, when you’re having a bad day, if you’re poorly, if you’re a bit stressed.
Maddi: Or when you see them as being confirmed in some way. So I think like. Because a lot of them I think can develop when you’re a young person as well. So I think, you know, teachers, parents of children especially, I think once you kind of hit the age of identity formation, like I don’t know what, 11, 12, you know, when you’re really starting to separate from your family. And you really start to develop that sense of identity. You can always remember, can’t you, something positive or negative, someone said to you that’s kind of then built a construct of self and become a self belief later in life. And even though you might shirk that off. Yeah. Based on, on more experiences perhaps of success or difference.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: If something then happens to reconfirm that, that self doubt.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: It really can set you off on a path. Can’t it?
Orlaith: Yes.
Maddi: You know, and it can be really hard to pull yourself out of that.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: anyway, let’s go through my little list, shall we?
Orlaith: Okay.
Maddi: So the first one is all or nothing thinking.
Orlaith: Okay.
Maddi: So that’s when you see situations in really extreme categories. So if I’m not perfect, I’m a failure.
Orlaith: Yeah, that will be one. I have no friends. Nobody likes me.
Maddi: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Orlaith: So you can’t have like in, in that sort of intrusive, negative thought. You can’t have one or two good friends. You have to either be really popular or you have no friends.
Maddi: Yeah. And I guess somebody who’s in that, in that place, then… I guess for me I’m like, well, why would somebody… What would be the underpinning things that someone, why would someone feel like that? Do you know?
Orlaith: Well, I think it’s the basis of the link between thoughts and feelings, isn’t it? And actually if you feel lonely or sad. There’s a lot of, physiology attached, isn’t there? You know, there’s things that your heart is doing and your blood is doing and your body’s doing and you need to sort of find physical ways to relax. So lots of our guests have talked about, like listen to music etc, etc. But if you can identify. And it’s what you said at the start Maddi. The trick here is noticing because if you can notice a thought, you can challenge and explore and, and poke at a thought and try and find exceptions and you can try and find different thoughts. But if you’re. If you’ve progressed into the thought starts to make you feel a certain way. It’s really hard, isn’t it? And I think Shova talked a bit about that. She talked about, you know, at the beginning of feeling anxious and not being able to go to school. She could say there was a particular reason she was worried about. I think I remember she said, everyone’s talking about me in the lesson. But then generally she just felt this huge anxiety about going to school. And at that point, when you just feel the big feeling, it’s really hard to say to someone what the problem actually is.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: Do you know what I mean? Because the language is kind of detached. You’re in the fight or flight emotional response.
Maddi: Yeah. Or how you then challenge the thought as well.
Orlaith: Yes.
Maddi: So one thing I know, I find really hard as a mum when I get these statements from, from my children, is in that moment, if you try to challenge the thought by giving them an opposite view, they don’t want to know. Like you were saying earlier, you don’t understand.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: Do you know? You don’t. You don’t get it. You don’t understand me. So we. We were talking about, weren’t we? And something again, I think it was Shova or was it Grace? I can’t. One of them brought into the room the idea of not challenging thoughts but noticing and sitting with.
Orlaith: It’s interesting because the thoughts, the negative, intrusive thoughts, they fight back. So what you’re describing there, which is the ‘You don’t get me’, I feel like that’s sometimes the thoughts fighting back and trying to convince you. Like your mum doesn’t get it. I’m right. You know, this voice in your head that’s saying you have no friends. And Grace definitely talked about that with, she talked about thoughts attached to her eating disorder that it sort of feeds itself. So it has these like thoughts that make it stronger. And these thought cycles go round and round, don’t they?
Maddi: Yeah. So, little test then say, right, I’m a teenager and I’m saying to you, as my mom, I’ve got no mates. I’ve got no mates. I just hate. I hate this. I’ve got no friends at all. So I guess as a mum, if you then say. If you then say, well you have got friends. What about Da, Da, Da?
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: For example? ‘Well, I don’t even like her anyway’. Like, ‘she’s really boring’. You know, like the challenge comes, doesn’t it?
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: So in that. In those moments, then, I guess what we’re saying is, instead of trying to challenge the thought, teach how to sit with it.
Orlaith: Yeah. There’s a couple of approaches, I think, and I think the mistake that we make as adults is when we just dive in with one approach. So we say, of course you have friends. I’m going to challenge this with logic. Most of the time, logic is not the best idea.
Maddi: because someone’s not in a logical place.
Orlaith: Exactly.
Maddi: You’re not meeting them where they are.
Orlaith: Exactly.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: So I think there’s three different approaches. There’s, There is challenge with logic, but you need to get the young person to do that for themselves. So I think you can ask them questions. So you can say, well, are there any. So school. There’s no one at school, but is there anyone at the youth club or is there anyone, like any of your cousins that you’re close to and you can find logic. And, as psychologists, we call that looking for exceptions, don’t we? Yeah, you know, where’s the exception? But like you said, if they’re not in a logical place, you’re not going to get anywhere with that approach. So there’s something about teaching children and young people to notice these thoughts, because it’s not until they notice them they can actually manage them and do something about them. There’s a really nice visualisation where you visualise sitting on a riverbank and think of the thoughts in all these little boats just going down the river. And you can’t go onto the river and stop the thoughts or try and, like, push them back or anything. Just let them float past you and notice them. And that’s quite a nice, like, visual exercise, isn’t it?
Maddi: So how would you get. How, I guess, thinking about what if you’re a parent, what words you would use? I guess it’s something, isn’t it, about. Do you need to kind of acknowledge what might be underneath the feeling maybe. I don’t know, like, I’m, noticing. I’m noticing that you’re saying that a lot lately.
Orlaith: Yes, you could. You could help them do the notion, couldn’t you? Like, I’ve noticed that. Or I noticed that you’ve. You talk a lot about this when you’re tired or, you know, I know you’ve got your exams coming up and you’re stressed and you seem to be talking about this a lot more. Is it something that you think about when you’re stressed?
Maddi: Yeah, I’ve noticed this is something that’s really bothering you at the moment. Because when you talk about it, you talk about it. Can you. Yeah, I guess you could do that, couldn’t you? Acknowledge the negative cognition.
Orlaith: Exactly. And maybe you talk with them so you don’t try and challenge. You know, they’re saying, I have no friends. You. You say, right, tell me about it, you know.
Maddi: Yeah, that must be hard. Yeah, that must be hard to feel like, that.
Orlaith: What. What does it feel like? What other thoughts do you have?
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: When you’re at school and you have no one to talk to, like, what does that feel like?
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: What thoughts do you have? I think directing them to the thoughts all the time and trying to get them to notice. But there is something, a third approach where, it’s not compassionate to challenge the thought. It’s, you know, even potentially a bit cruel. Do you know what I mean? Just because they’re just not ready, they’re having a really, really hard time. And there’s something there, a third approach which is, how much am I going to let this talk control my life? Do you know what I mean? So Shova talked about that, didn’t she? She was saying, I can’t go to school, I can’t do it. I’m so worried. And she just. She could not. She couldn’t think about how she could actually make herself go.
So she changed her approach, which was, well, if I let these thoughts control me so much that I’m going to miss out on school, my qualifications, etc. So you shift away from challenging the thought, don’t you? And just say, how much am I going to let this control me, control me and take opportunities away from me?
Maddi: Yeah. Because, we talked about sitting with anxiety, didn’t we? And allowing it to be there, noticing it and saying, okay, hello. Yeah, you’re with me today. Yeah, let’s do this. Anyway, so, Shova talked a lot about the second. So the second type of thinking. So we’ve talked about all or nothing thinking. But the other one is catastrophizing.
Orlaith: Yes.
Maddi: So assuming the worst case scenario will happen or blowing things out of proportion. So I guess an example like from Shova isn’t it would be if I go to school, I’m going to have a panic attack because she, that she actually experienced that. So that was a very real, a very real thought for her, I guess. But she, she talked about always assuming the worst, didn’t she?
Orlaith: And that is one of the techniques that some of these intrusive thoughts use because they’re, they’re convincing you that this catastrophized future is going to happen. So they’re really again convincing you that they are right. And then they’re stopping you from doing things like going to school, doing the hard thing because you’re so convinced by this worst case scenario is definitely going to happen.
Maddi: Yeah, I was just, you know what, I was just thinking about that. I was thinking, do you think, and it might be that there’s two different things. Do you think that you really think the worst case scenario is going to happen or do you think that that’s a helpful coping strategy to avoid. Because if you say this awful thing’s gonna happen, it’s almost like you’re telling yourself, well it’s okay to not do it then because it’s gonna be terrible. Do you know? Like it’s.
Orlaith: I think that’s the function that, yeah, the catastrophizing. Because I think the function of all the intrusive thoughts, I think it’s a little bit like healthy anxiety just gone a bit awry. You know what I mean? So yeah, if there’s a really dangerous situation, having thoughts like I’m gonna die, I’m gonna die is good because you’re gonna stay away from the danger. And this whole thing about this, when it’s high level anxiety is it’s your normal anxiety just gone a little bit awry, tricking you like a smoke alarm, but placed over the toaster. So every time you burn toast the smoke alarm goes off like the house is on fire.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: You still need the smoke alarm. Just move it somewhere else. So it only goes off when there’s an actual fire. Yeah, but you’re exactly right. It’s, it’s, that is a healthy thing to think. Worst case scenario, I’m going to die. I’m not going to go in the dangerous situation. That’s a good thing to do. But the problem is when there’s not real danger, danger or there’s not a high probability of danger and there’s actually a lot in that situation that will help you, like learning, friends opportunities, qualifications,
Maddi: and you might be telling yourself there’s danger because that’s is a helpful way for you to then avoid and especially the language that you use around it. So I think a lot of the time, with young people that I’ve worked with, the language that they use, the catastrophizing language especially, it’s a way of, it’s actually, it’s not a belief that that will happen, it’s a way of saying, I’m unhappy, I need help. So it’s like, you know, and instead of saying I’m really unhappy and I need help.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: It’s a catastrophizing statement.
Orlaith: So if, if you’re having these catastrophizing thoughts, what’s our advice for the parents and carers?
Maddi: So I guess there’s something about going, going in where someone is emotionally. So when you’re sitting alongside somebody and they might be, you know, coming out with these statements, it’s acknowledging feeling like that must be really challenging.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: It must be really scary.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: If you, if you really think that, you know that’s going to happen.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: And then I guess acknowledging. Yeah. The feelings that are underneath that, and trying to connect with them on that level. It’s a bit like emotion coaching, isn’t it?
Orlaith: Yeah. There’s something as well about helping them to think through that worst case scenario.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: So like Shova talked about when she was in school, she had a health, a sort of a support plan and you know, if she had a panic attack, there was like a one page description of what she needed. So there’s something about that. So let’s say that the intrusive thought is, I’m gonna have a panic attack, it’s gonna be awful. So the questions that you could ask are, so, so if you do go and you do have a panic attack, what, what will happen? Who will be there? What will they do? How will they help you?
Maddi: What’s the worst that can happen?
Orlaith: Exactly as well. And there’s something there because I think the thing that the catastrophizing thoughts do sometimes is they present themselves and then they stop you thinking about the situation. So you never get to practise what you’re going to do, what you have to do. So they really destabilise you and they don’t give you any, any opportunity to develop skills to cope if they do
Maddi: happen and convince you that you can’t cope, isn’t it? It’s a catastrophizing language. It convinces you that you can’t cope and think, yeah, absolutely, that’s, that’s what it is as an adult supporting person, isn’t it? It’s about, it’s about how do you convince them that even if that happens. So, all right, you’ve got this catastrophizing thought and you think that’s going to happen and that’s preventing you from doing this. So let’s put you in that situation. What makes you think you can’t cope? And I guess then if you can think of any examples when something bad has happened and they have coped and unpick what they used in that situation to cope and noticing with them, well, I remember when this happened with you and you coped amazingly. You did this, you did this, you did this, you know, and given them, I guess, that self confidence to cope with the catastrophe as well.
Orlaith: I worked with a teenage boy a couple of years ago and he was, he was autistic and so he was really, really, when he got really interested in something, he’d research it. He really loved maths and he was really anxious about leaving the house. And he was telling me how he’d developed this whole system of who was worried about leaving the house. So he got really obsessed with getting hit by a bus and worrying that he couldn’t go out the house because he’d get hit by a bus. So we did all this research about how many people hit by a bus in, in the UK and all this. And he had all these little, sort of script. He would say to himself, you know, there’s a, such a percentage likelihood that I’m going to get hit by a bus. It’s more likely that I’m going to get hit by lightning and it’s more likely that if I stay in the house, I’m, I’m gonna have a heart attack early because I’m not gonna get any exercise. And he had done all this and it helped him to get out of the house. And it was really, he, he felt really empowered in that because he was like thinking through the worst case scenario, balancing it all out and then deciding actually on, on the balance of all of this, I am going to decide to go out the house because I want to go to college, because I want to go to that lesson. And so there’s something about helping kids to do that for themselves so they feel safe to take the next step.
Maddi: Yeah. Have you ever told you about my fear of flying?
Orlaith: No.
Maddi: So I. Catastrophe. This is my catastrophizing thing. So every, like since I’ve had children, I’ve just been really scared of getting on an aeroplane.
Orlaith: That happens to people a lot! That happened to my friend. It’s fine. And then when you have kids, the responsibility or something? Yeah, yeah.
Maddi: Yeah.And I think that’s what it is. I actually went to some hypnotherapy for it. Right. So it didn’t work. but what was interesting was that I have developed this weird self construct around responsibility.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: So the idea of being on a plane, that being responsible for my children and lack of control, that was the other thing. However, what you were just saying there is really interesting because I started. So I never thought I’d get over this. Right. And I started listening to this podcast called Love Fly. And it’s all about. It’s all about what you just said about transforming thoughts to knowledge. It’s all about building knowledge and building knowledge of the experience so that you can understand. So the more you understand something, the less you’re scared of it. And the more you want like, understand a situation and why something is happening to you, the more you can control it as well. So I had to develop an understanding of self in terms of why I was feeling like that. And then all the rational points that you just brought up, like, you know, what the probabilities, etc. But, what, what it does for anyone out there is listening who is scared of flying, this literally has changed my life because now I can get on a plane and I don’t feel the fear at all. It’s has a checklist of noises through takeoff.
Orlaith: Okay.
Maddi: So I was just thinking about Imagine. So I thinking about Shova. this was quite relevant to her because she talked about one step at a time. And it’s a similar thing in that when you know what to expect and you can plan it out in your head, it all of a sudden becomes a lot less scary.
Orlaith: So you’re not just doing the whole flight, you’re just thinking. Right. Just take off. Just don’t freak out during the takeoff. What’s happening? What are the noises?
Maddi: Yeah, what are the noises. And I had a checklist. So the last flight I went outside a checklist and I sat and checked through all the noises. Because it’s a thing, isn’t it? Like, oh my God, what’s that? Oh my God, you know, why are we going that way? What are you Know, it’s all these silly, irrational, catastrophizing thoughts. But that helped. And the other thing that really helped was I went into the cockpit on my last flight, so I went and asked the flight attendants if I could go and speak to the pilots. And, it was really funny because the advice was question them about all their experience because you get to learn on this podcast about everything a pilot has to do to become a pilot, about how many times they have to be grounded, to be tested, all of the stuff they have to go in. Absolutely insane. But I was questioning about their level of experience and they laughed.
Orlaith: I bet they loved you.
Maddi: And they actually said to me, you’d be surprised how many people come and do this.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: Which also really helped because then, Knowing that somebody else is.
Orlaith: Yes.
Maddi: You know, you’re not alone. You’re not alone. Yeah, exactly.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: But it really does relate to those catastrophizing situations, doesn’t it? For young people? The more you can control and understand.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: And visualise.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: As well.
Orlaith: Talk about it. Imagine being there.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: Practise it with a trusted person. When you’re not actually in this situation.
Maddi: What will you say? What will you think.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: You know, how will you control what’s it feel like? And how can you recognise Notice.
Orlaith: Exactly.
Maddi: And try and counteract as well. Okay.
Orlaith: Right, what’s next on our list?
Maddi: Mental filter. So filtering. This is basically about, what we would call into psychology, like salience to negativity. So focusing exclusively on negative detail while ignoring the positive stuff.
Orlaith: So like having tunnel vision. Yeah, tunnel vision. Yeah, exactly. And that’s really hard because again, the more, you feel like you’re gathering evidence for the thought. And it’s another trick that these negative, intrusive, automatic thoughts use to convince you that they’re right. Do you know what I mean? So, you know, if you’re saying, I, you know, I’m not very good at football, and then you play a game and you lose, you focus on that rather than the game before where you won.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: You’ll focus on the negative. It’s like a human instinct and then it confirms your belief. I’m not very good at football.
Maddi: Yeah, there is. It’s. Yeah, it’s funny, isn’t it? And sometimes I think we look for confirmation bias.
Orlaith: Of course we do.
Maddi: Because there are some things we also don’t want to do.
Orlaith: Yes.
Maddi: Or things that were. As we’ve developed our self. Identity, we’ve not. Identified ourselves as being good at that thing. Because at Some point along the line, you’ve developed a negative cognition of, I can’t cope with that, I can’t do it. And then you look, you constantly. Mental filtering is about always looking and confirming that negative. That negative thing.
Orlaith: And you know, interesting. I think this is another mistake that adults make when trying to support young people. So they’ll see the young person upset. They’ll see them focusing on the negative. So, you know, I’m not good enough. I failed again. Look at this test result. I’ve got. I’m rubbish..
Maddi: I’m rubbish at Maths is a big one.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: I hear kids say that all the time.
Orlaith: Yeah. Like, but then the adult will try and bring in the positive from a good place. They’ll try and say, of course. Remember you did. You got like a good mark in your. In your mark. This is just.
Maddi: You can’t be good at everything. Yeah. That’s what a lot of people say.
Orlaith: And bringing in, like. But you’re really good at. You’re really good at singing or you’re really good at English. Don’t worry about maths. And actually, that’s another time the negative thoughts will fight back, isn’t it?
Maddi: It’s been confirmed, isn’t it? Yeah, that’s why. That’s right. It’s so true.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: It’s like me and cooking. Every time I try it, no one likes my food.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: So I’ll just say, well, I’m not doing it then. I’m rubbish at that. And I have developed a cognition around it.
Orlaith: Me too.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: I always talk about it.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: I’m like, oh, I’m crap at cooking.
Maddi: Yeah. Just about wangle of fish finger sandwich. Yeah. But, but it’s the. It is the same thing. But I think when we’re thinking about young people, when this becomes quite extreme. Is when they. They really do develop those mental filters that then has an impact on participation, on engagement, on social interaction, on, you know, different areas of their life that then prevent them from doing.
Orlaith: Exactly.
Maddi: and it can become really difficult kind of if you’ve got, you know, that constant confirmation. I wonder how much this happens in schools Orlaith.
Orlaith: Laura. well, Shova talks a lot about it, like walking to school with her sister. And her sister was like. She was saying to her sister, I cannot take another step. And her sister was looking at her, you know, with disbelief and sort of joking with her, being sarcastic and saying, we’ll just walk over to that tree. You know, her sister, from a logical perspective is looking. And Shova is there in that tunnel vision of the negative thoughts, just purely believing. I cannot take another step. I cannot walk to that tree. And in that moment, challenging. Challenging the thoughts. It’s tricky, isn’t it? So I think a lot of. In that. In that type of tunnel vision, I think a lot of distraction is a good approach, which is like just taking the power out of the moment. So what do you think you can do right now? I think I could, you know, walk in a different direction, away from school. Right, let’s do that. Do you know what I mean?
Maddi: Yeah, you’ve got it. Again, it depends on. I think, It depends on emotional state in the moment, doesn’t it, as to how you would approach it? Because I think, yeah, trying to. The rational stuff. So, we talk a lot, don’t we, about what we call the motherboard in our brain, our prefrontal cortex, which is where we have thought processes, which is where we can apply critical thinking, which is where we can control impulse. You know, it’s where a lot of our language skills come from and our processing skills. And often when a child is in that very emotional place, their prefrontal cortex is completely deactivated. They’ve got no rational thinking. I guess this is where then the, inability to control those thoughts comes in. Because the motherboard is down. It’s down. It’s not working. Yeah. So how do you then approach a child or a young person in a way that links to their more. What we would call kind of mammalian brain.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: Which is, you know, perhaps in a. In a sensory way. You know, things like breathing. You know, how do we. How do we support somebody to calm themselves enough to control the thoughts by activating the motherboard?
Orlaith: And I think this is something. This is where something that Ella talked about in her episode comes in. So she talked about what’s your mindset and how do you find things that you enjoy even in the face of real challenge? So she talked about a really, you know, really awful experience of losing her brother. And she was talking about how she thinks of it as a rare opportunity of an experience she’s had that she can use to help other people. And she talks a lot about how drama is a real passion of hers, and it helped her to go to school and get out and about. And actually, that is something in the face of some of these negative thoughts, when you feel like you can’t do it, is there something you can help the young person do that makes them feel good, that they love doing, that they will go to school for example, for that thing, or they will get out of bed to see that person or to watch that movie or to go to that place. So you’re not really trying to challenge the thought that you can’t do it. You’re just trying to override it with.
Maddi: With what we talked about at the beginning. Value.
Orlaith: Exactly.
Maddi: Value added value felt.
Orlaith: Exactly. And you get a positive sense of motivation from that, don’t you? You know?
Maddi: Yeah. One of the things that, the podcast I was listening to yesterday talked about was because they say when they were thinking about the idea of value. And this really rang true of me because of, some of the. Some of the schools that I’ve worked in and when I’ve worked with children who, you think about this, a child perhaps, who’s disconnected. They don’t seem or feel like they belong. You know, they don’t have great relationships. Perhaps their behaviour is quite, you know, extreme or they’re very dysregulated. I won’t. Obviously I won’t say his name but there’s this this child. I think he was year five at the time, but he was a really challenging child. You know, I had a lot of trauma and on a Friday afternoon we took a group of children for golden time. And every Friday afternoon he came to golden time, regardless of what happened during his week. You know, it was just. He was just allowed to do it. And he had the key to the cupboard because for golden time, we opened the sports cupboard and we got all of the, we got all the equipment out and, for whatever. I was like, I don’t understand why this makes him behave differently. Because he had the key and it gave him a sense of value, that’s why. Because he felt like, I’m important in this moment, I’m important. And that really, really helped with controlling his emotions and. And probably changing a lot of those negative cognitions about self being, naughty. About not being good enough.
Orlaith: Yeah, all those thoughts.
Maddi: Yeah, exactly. And kids do love being the scissor monitor, don’t they.
Orlaith: Yes.
Maddi: It’s like, why they. Why do they love that? So, you know, you’d be like, oh, for God’s sake, I’ve got to get up. Yeah, wouldn’t you?
Orlaith: Kids love it, this thing about, you know what, how do you help kids to challenge these thoughts? This question. That is a good example of that. I think sometimes you have to show not tell them
Maddi: Yeah, that’s so true.
Orlaith: And so for that little boy, yeah, whoever gave him the key and said, you’re in charge of opening the cupboard.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: That is so much more powerful than saying you’re really important. You need to be in golden time. Everybody wants you there. Don’t worry about thinking that you’re naughty and nobody likes you. Like that just sounds like, blah, blah, blah. If you feel like I’m naughty, nobody wants me in golden time. Whereas having a sense of purpose and value. And it’s interesting, some research from, positive psychology talks about treatment for anxiety and depression as acts of kindness for others. Yeah. Is like a really, really powerful value. Adding value. So you just making yourself feel valued and purposeful and you’re showing yourself rather than telling yourself.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: And so, you know, one of the most powerful things you can do if you’re feeling really anxious or really low is go out and do something for somebody else.
Maddi: Yeah. Because it adds to the sense, your sense of value, doesn’t it? Another. Another funny example. So, me and my daughter at the minute, we’re watching old episodes of, Educating Manchester.
Orlaith: Oh, I love this.
Maddi: Yeah on Channel Four. if you’re listening, go back and watch over the series. Because if you go back with. If you look at. If you’re watching from a psychological perspective, a lot of the things that we’re talking about here. Are so evident in the relationships that are.
Orlaith: Educating Yorkshire is brilliant too.
Maddi: Yeah. It’s so funny. Yeah. I’m sure this one’s Manchester, but there’s this kid and lot, again, a lot of behavioural challenges. You know, like, he’s, a bit of a class clown and. But, also a real character. So there’s a scene where he sat in the canteen and, he’s with his mates and the head teacher comes and he just sits down opposite, like you and I are now. And he says, I’ve been thinking about you and I’ve been thinking about what you’re really good at and I think you should apply to be on the school council. And this kid’s face, like, I. Like, I had a tear to my eye last night. because. And so did my daughter as well, actually, which is, you know, a rare thing for empathy. But she. We both sat there kind of. And it was. You could see in his face, he went, really? Me? Yeah, he went, sir, I can’t thank you enough. Oh, like. And this, you know, this kid, he’s naughty and he’s running off from teachers and.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: And all that. Yeah. And it’s just. You just think, well, yeah, because he felt purposeful, somebody told him that they believed in him and he didn’t do it by saying, I believe in you.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: You’ll be all right. You know, he didn’t do any of that. He just gave him something.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: That was gonna.
Orlaith: He showed him rather than told him
Maddi: something differently about himself.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: Through an afflict of kindness.
Orlaith: And that’s really interesting. You’re making me think there. So a lot of the things we’re talking about, about challenging, negative, automatic negative thoughts are with other thoughts. But actually the showing is powerful. And maybe it’s about finding ways to show yourself as well. Because some, sometimes you can use self talk so you can talk back to your negative thoughts and challenge them and look for exceptions. But sometimes that doesn’t work. It’s too hard. So maybe it’s sometimes about the showing yourself. So, Grace talks a lot about finding this slow life that she really loves now, didn’t she?
Maddi: Yeah. And like self compassion
Orlaith: telling yourself you are worth it and you are good at things and you know, you are. It is okay to. To do things that you and your friends like if. And if it’s not the cool thing to do.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: So there’s something about that as well that, you know, maybe showing yourself your value and showing yourself the alternative to the negative thoughts is powerful too.
Maddi: Yeah. And something as well with Grace. what I found amazing about her was the way she has allowed a level of compassion for herself that kind of, I think, goes against the grain of what she expected of herself before. Like her expectations of herself now are aligned with what she. What feeds her soul.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: You know, and that’s a really hard place to get to, actually. Especially for someone at quite a young age, I think definitely. Because we all, we all think we should be this, we should be that. We should be able to. Yeah, we should. You know, so maybe there’s something in that around challenging thoughts as well. It’s like, well, I wonder why you feel like you should be good at that?
Orlaith: Yes. You know, one of the other, negative thought patterns is, mind reading.
Maddi: Yes.
Orlaith: And that is really common, isn’t it? Which is thinking that, you know, what other people are talking about. And that kind of feeds into that. You know, everyone thinks I should go to uni or everyone’s talking about me or, you know, if I, if I wear that outfit, everyone’s going to think I look rubbish. Yeah.
Maddi: Do you know that was literally the next one on the list? You read it. Read my mind.
Orlaith: It’s as if we, as if we knew some of these things if we plan this. But that’s the thing, isn’t it? And a lot of that comes from I think, the social pressure of society about what you think people expect of you.
Maddi: And there’s something, isn’t there, about, about the value you place on other people’s thoughts of you.
Orlaith: Well, that’s another thing as well.
Maddi: Yeah. Yeah. And what’s under, I suppose, on what’s underneath that? and I think some of that comes with age.
Orlaith: Doesn’t it that so hard though when you’re a teenager.
Maddi: When you’re a teenager.
Orlaith: Because we also know a bit like you were saying, the developmental stage for teenagers when you’re that age starting. Starting secondary school, like young teenager, you’re in this space where what your friends think is more powerful than what your parents think.
Maddi: Yeah. 100 per cent.
Orlaith: Developmentally, that’s where you are like.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: you know, there’s a phase there where you will be led and get value from peers. Yeah. And. But those peers are also at the same level of emotional maturity. That’s the problem, isn’t it?
Maddi: Yeah. Or you know, beyond or below or whatever your environment looks like. And yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s huge at that age.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: And I think for parents where you get frustrated where your child might be coming back and, and experiencing you know, low self esteem or negative thinking about themselves and having those, you know, everyone hates me. Or worrying overly worrying about what other people think of them actually saying things like, oh, don’t worry about what other people think or you know, don’t be so bothered about. Or that, you know, don’t know. All the people’s thoughts control you actually. That is where they’re at. And it’s actually, it’s a very normal place to be at that age. So actually the validation of, you know, I understand that you feel like that because it’s hard.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: You know, when you think people are gonna not like what you’re wearing or you know, and just wonder out loud about the feelings and the other thoughts that might be.
Orlaith: Exactly.
Maddi: That might be linked to that as well and exploring it with them, I guess.
Orlaith: Ella talked, she said something really lovely, which I took as a learning point from myself where she was saying that when she was going through the loss of her brother, she would hear friends and other young people saying like, oh, they were really upset about something else in their life. Like they lost a pet or something didn’t go right or they fell out with a friend and that was the worst thing for them at that moment. But she had this like real perspective from like a really difficult experience, which is a bit like a superpower when you get that perspective in life. But then she went on to say, but what you need to understand is that is the hardest thing for them right now. And she was like, and I’ve lost a pet and it is awful. And there’s real compassion in that, isn’t there?
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: To be. To just understand different perspectives, to have perspective yourself. To say, they’re probably worrying about their own thing.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: And then the realisation that, oh, what is their own thing? I hope they’re okay. There’s like, you sort of disconnect from your own negative. And then there’s. There’s. There’s an opportunity for connection, which we know helps people when they’re feeling anxious and isolated.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: So I think if you can break out of some of these negative thought patterns, it’s a bit like a light bulb moment, isn’t it? So it’s not like, I don’t know. A lot. A lot of our guests talked about this one script or this one technique that they found that helped them. And I think a lot of people, you will get there eventually. It’s not that you’ll never have the negative thoughts again.
Maddi: Yeah. Oh, they’re there with you, aren’t they? Yeah. 100 per cent.
Orlaith: Well, we still talk about. We think we’re crap at cooking.
Maddi: Yeah. Yeah.
Orlaith: But you just get this little set of like, like your checklist for the plane. You just get your foolproof. This works for me. Every time I have this thought. Oh, it’s this thought again. Right. Get my checklist out.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: You know.
Maddi: Yeah. I worked with a girl in. Yeah. It just reminded me of her, again I won’t say her name. She was in Year six and she had. She started to develop what I would say was like kind of early social anxieties. One of the things that she worried about all the time was when they went to a restaurant as a family, her mum and dad always expected her to order her own food. And, she would literally sit and the whole time waiting to order, get really anxious about it. And. And when we unpicked it, the negative thoughts were, I’m going to sound stupid. I’ll, mess up the pronunciation of what I’m saying. I’ll be too quiet or too loud. And all of it was linked to this person who’s coming over to take my order Is going to think I’m stupid. So what we did was, we did a bit of a role play. So I got her to be the waitress. And what we did is try and put her in the position of that waitress who’s had a busy day. She might have, you know, spilled coffee on a customer, so been shouted out by the chef, you know, perhaps forgotten to take, forgotten to take payment from another table. And actually, all she’s probably thinking about coming over is, I’ve got to try and give these people a nice experience and get this order right. And, you know, like, what. What might her anxieties be? And actually, I remember her saying to me that helped her so much because she stopped thinking about her own worries and actually she could think about what other people might be actually really thinking. And I said to her, what makes you think she’s going to care whether you’re loud or quiet? Yeah, she just cares about getting the order right. That’s it. She doesn’t care. You know, she’s like, oh, yeah, yeah, it’s me that cares about that.
Orlaith: And that’s the light bulb moment, isn’t it? I think as well, for, for adults who are thinking, how do I help a child who’s having this? Like, I can’t go to a restaurant, might be there. You know, I guess how that young person would be with her parents that evening is like, I’m not going. You can’t make me.
Maddi: It’s a refusal, isn’t it? Because they’re catastrophizing something.
Orlaith: Yes. So a, way through there is to ask, what are you thinking about it? Because all the stuff you just uncovered, like, I’m going to be too quiet. What if I say the wrong thing? You can practise those things.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: Do you know what I mean? You can. Maybe you don’t go to the restaurant that night, but you can sit down and do what you just talked about, the role play, you can practise it. And, And there’s things you can do about that. Whereas if you’re just stuck in these negative thoughts because they’re so all or nothing, they’re predicting the future, they’re catastrophizing. It’s very difficult to work with them. So I think trying to ask questions, to hear the thoughts and understand what the thoughts are gets you to the next set of.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: Activities.
Maddi: I think, to. To. To kind of guess. Last thing to talk about.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: With this, then, is because when you would. When you’re talking then, about strategies and, and ways of managing thoughts, getting out this cycle, there’s something, isn’t there, about how you get on the cycle of motivation to deal with the thoughts and to get out of these negative thought patterns because often they are serving a purpose of avoidance or, Or I guess not wanting to put yourself in an uncomfortable situation or,
Orlaith: And Shova talked about that.
Maddi: Yeah,
Orlaith: She talked about. In a weird way, it’s a weird thing to say, but I felt like comfortable in the anxiety.
Maddi: Comfortable. Yeah.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: So where is something about motivation, isn’t it? And, and we talk about the cycle of motivation from kind of pre contemplation through to contemplation through to contemplation of action and then, you know, round to actually getting up and doing something about it. If you’ve got a youth child or a young person, you’re a teacher or you’re a, Or anyone who works with children, how do you get them to start thinking about a different way? I guess.
Orlaith: Good question.
Maddi: Yeah. Because that’s the hard thing for me, isn’t it? It’s like. Well, I guess maybe then it’s thinking about what are these thoughts serving. What is the anxiety serving here for this child, isn’t it? It’s getting under that layer.
Orlaith: I think the, the way to get started is to look for the dissonance. So to look for any example that they don’t want things to be like the way they are.
Maddi: Perfect. Yeah.
Orlaith: Do you know what I mean? So, so maybe they don’t. They just. They’re not going to go to school that day. No chance. They’re too much. But they want to have friends.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: And they talk about wanting friends. So there’s. Even though that’s not them saying, oh, yeah, I’m ready now to change and I’m going to go to school. There’s just an example thereof. There’s some desire for that young person for things to be different.
Maddi: For things to be different.
Orlaith: And as soon as you find that that’s your. That’s your way in, isn’t it? Yeah.
Maddi: Yeah. That’s it. So, yeah. A real life example. my daughter came. She hates school. She’s, you know, always avoidant. She came home last night and told me that she’d picked her options. She’d sat down with a key adult at school who. Someone who’s absolutely wonderful with her. And this is the first time probably in two years she spoke positively about education. And you know what I thought, this is. This is different. This feels different. There’s some dissonance here to the narrative.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: Or to the, you know, the fulfilment of, I’m not good at this, I’m going to fail.
Orlaith: Yes.
Maddi: Actually, There was a little bit of belief there. So it’s how you then, as a parent or a teacher, how do you then focus on that positive.
Orlaith: Yeah.
Maddi: And try and. Yeah. Bring them along on a path of change.
Orlaith: But I think there’s a really subtle thing that you have to remember, which I learned. I remember learning this when we looked at this in psychology, in our training. You have to. You have to guide them to the exception. You have to.
Maddi: You can’t give it them.
Orlaith: You can’t give it to them. You have to. You have to ask them the questions or notice with them and get them to the point where they go, oh, yeah, I would like to have friends.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: Or. Oh, I would actually like to study German. Yeah. Whatever the option is.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: It’s so, so subtle. In terms of the strategy that it sounds too simple.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: But it is. You’ve got to be like, you say, join them where they are.
Maddi: Yeah.
Orlaith: Don’t enforce, you know, your idea of logic on there, but guide them to the thing that you can see, which is, oh, there’s. There’s something. There is some motivation that they want to be different. And it’s always there.
Maddi: You know, it’s always there. It’s always there.
Orlaith: That is one of the most powerful things. There’s like an approach called motivational interviewing, isn’t there, where the research comes from Working with people really in the depths of substance addiction. Like, really, really places where there’s not a lot of hope. And this approach comes from there. That there is always an exception. It might take years to find it. It might take. There’s some reason. There’s something that the person will not want to be like that. That you can find a way forward.
Maddi: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I did it, you know, when we were doing my doctorate, I did a motivational interview with, another student. So we were like. We were rehearsing it. Oh, yeah. And I brought. Smoked at the time, smoked it’s cigarettes. And I brought that into the room. Do you know, I quit.
Orlaith: Did you?
Maddi: I quit after MI. Yeah.
Orlaith: One session.
Maddi: One session.
Orlaith: Wow.
Maddi: Yeah, she was a good psychologist. all right. I’ve really enjoyed this chat. Yeah, me too. Really enjoyed it.
Orlaith: Talking about psychology, talking about our wonderful guests and what we had in the room. In our episodes this season, Maddi, were three young people who just came in here to talk about their experiences. Some of them have worked with psychologists, some of them haven’t. I heard so much psychology from them, and I just find that so exciting that they were telling us this is like lived psychology, you know, it reminds me why I wanted to be a psychologist. There’s so much in this area and topic and subject that helps people and some of it is, so simple that anyone can do it. So it’s something I’m really passionate about on the podcast, is giving people ideas and tips that they can use to help themselves or people in their lives who are struggling. Because we need, as a community to talk about and support mental health. Because it’s so endemic that we can’t just rely on all the psychologists in the clinics.
Maddi: No. And it’s often not a clinical problem, is that, you know, like, we’ve kind of. We’ve normalised a lot of this by our own experiences, I think. And, you know, although young people will tend to struggle with this stuff a lot more because of that, they’re developmentally less rational. You know, the, the prefrontal cortex is still developing. It’s not, it’s not always, being ignited. I hope what we, what we’ve done over this series, and especially this episode, is if you’re a parent or you’re working with a child and you’ve got a child in mind when we’re talking about some of these topics, I hope they can go away and just think. Even if you just go away and think differently or think about an approach to use, then we’ve. We’ve done a good job today, so.
Orlaith: So we’ve come to the end of this episode, which also marks the end of season three. And like, we’ve just been saying, it’s been really amazing just hearing from our three amazing guests this series and hopefully you found it really interesting listening to them as well.
Maddi: So, finally, before we leave you, we’d really love to hear your feedback. You can leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. So let us know what you think and, which episodes really stood out to you. We would love to know your thoughts.
Orlaith: We’d like to say a huge thank you to everyone for listening. If you found the episode today interesting, you can go back and listen to any of our episodes from seasons one, two and, three that you might have missed along the way. We appreciate having you with us on this journey and we can’t wait to chat to you again in our next series.
Maddi: Thank you for listening.
Orlaith: Thanks, everyone. We discussed some heavy subjects today, so remember that you can find advice and links to support services on NottAlone.org.uk. You are not alone.
